January 2000
- JavaWorld: Build an object database J C Lawrence
- Muq update Cynbe ru Taren
- New link support J C Lawrence
- OS Inspiration Phillip Lenhardt
- OS Inspiration Greg Miller
- Chomsky's recursive theory of grammar J C Lawrence
- concerning tokenization, compilation, performance, and other fun stuff. Nate Cain
- concerning tokenization, compilation, performance, and other fun stuff. cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- concerning tokenization, compilation, performance, and other fun stuff. Joel Dillon
- concerning tokenization, compilation, performance, and other fun stuff. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Library submission notification and updates J C Lawrence
- EQ packet sniffer J C Lawrence
- Catalog of Compiler Construction Tools J C Lawrence
- Microthreads for Python J C Lawrence
- For those interested in parsers and compilers J C Lawrence
- EQ packet analyzer is gone? Sellers, Michael
- EQ packet analyzer is gone? J C Lawrence
- EQ packet analyzer is gone? J C Lawrence
- RFC: Worldforge project Scott Clitheroe
- ScryMUD 2.0.9 released (compiles on Windows (cygwin)) Ben Greear
- Clay Shirky's "Playfulness in 3-D Spaces" J C Lawrence
- Clay Shirky's "Playfulness in 3-D Spaces" Raph & Kristen Koster
- Clay Shirky's "Playfulness in 3-D Spaces" Sellers, Michael
- Clay Shirky's "Playfulness in 3-D Spaces" Nick Shaffner
- Clay Shirky's "Playfulness in 3-D Spaces" Sellers, Michael
- Clay Shirky's "Playfulness in 3-D Spaces" Jeremy Music "Sterling"
- Clay Shirky's "Playfulness in 3-D Spaces" msew
- ShowEQ Ashran
- Hello! F. Randall Farmer
- Hello! Cynbe ru Taren
- Y2K archives J C Lawrence
- An introduction... Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- An introduction... Lovecraft
- Laws website moves Raph & Kristen Koster
- Ok, got some brand new core dumps. J C Lawrence
- player politics (was An introduction...) Sellers, Michael
- player politics (was An introduction...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- player politics (was An introduction...) Sellers, Michael
- player politics (was An introduction...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- player politics (was An introduction...) J C Lawrence
- player politics (was An introduction...) Sellers, Michael
- A quick business question... Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- A quick business question... Matthew Mihaly
- A quick business question... Darrin Hyrup
- Question about multithreaded servers Fabian Lemke
- Question about multithreaded servers AR Schleicher
- Question about multithreaded servers Nick Shaffner
- Question about multithreaded servers Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Question about multithreaded servers Fabian
- Question about multithreaded servers Jon A. Lambert
- Question about multithreaded servers J C Lawrence
- Question about multithreaded servers Greg Underwood
- Question about multithreaded servers cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- Question about multithreaded servers J C Lawrence
- Question about multithreaded servers Greg Underwood
- Question about multithreaded servers J C Lawrence
- Question about multithreaded servers Emil Eifrém
- Question about multithreaded servers J C Lawrence
- Community Relations Dundee
- Community Relations Christopher Allen
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Greg Miller
- Community Relations Darrin Hyrup
- Community Relations Dundee
- Community Relations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Community Relations Dundee
- Community Relations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Community Relations Dundee
- Community Relations Marian Griffith
- Community Relations Koster, Raph
- Community Relations Jon A. Lambert
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Marc Bowden
- Community Relations Eli Stevens {Grey}
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Raph & Kristen Koster
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Koster, Raph
- Community Relations Travis Casey
- Community Relations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Community Relations Travis Casey
- Community Relations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Rahul Sinha
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Community Relations Koster, Raph
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- Community Relations Jon A. Lambert
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Community Relations Travis S. Casey
- Community Relations Douglas Couch
- Community Relations Dundee
- Community Relations Marian Griffith
- Community Relations Jon A. Lambert
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Jon A. Lambert
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Geoffrey A. MacDougall wrote:
> matt wrote:
>
> > I'm curious, how do you (or do you propose) choose the
> > players? It sounds
> > to me like you are talking about some sort of populist democratic
> > system? (correct me if I'm wrong please.) What happens when
> > they elect the
> > mud equivalent of hitler, and he decides that all Dwarves
> > should be kicked
> > off. Or, worse yet, what happens if the player who is at the
> > top of the
> > hierarchy decides hr is going to quit, and is going to go out
> > with a bang?
>
> Checks and balances. Limitations on power. Certain acts require the
> consent of multiple administrators...
Well, the way the person described it, he mentioned a hierarchy with one
single person at the top.
>
> > I suppose though that it's not completely a matter of
> > gettting the best
> > administrators, but also of giving the playerbase a feeling of
> > empowerment.
>
> Interesting phrasing - because a _feeling_ of empowererment is, by
> definition, not necessarily the same thing as empowerment. Is it possible
> to grant a user base the feeling of empowerment without actually
> surrendering control?
You never surrendur more than temporary control, because the users have
the power only by your leave. All non-consensual (and by that I mean 100%
consensual) government relies on power and in the end, the control truly
does lie with the owners recognized by the law, for those who worship the
law are inevitably going to be more powerful than your users.
> Has this strategy ever been successfully applied?
I've never heard of it being applied, but I'd really like to see someone
do it (perhaps this is a case where a non-commercial mud would be best
suited as a testing ground?)
> > It's not
> > so easy as just letting them vote straight out though, and
> > then vesting
> > all legislative/executive/judiciary power in one hierarchy,
> > because you
> > will end up with tyranny of the majority.
>
> An effective charter of rights (as defined in my previous posting) goes a
> long way in avoiding these problems...
Who enumerates what rights the players have? I must have missed this in
your post. The way I recall the system being described was that the users
themselves would decide on such things. Also, such a charter requires
human interpretation, presumably by the players, in such a system.
<stuff snipped about how simple voting by the entire populace, done in a
way that requires someone to either vote entirely yes or entirely no on an
issue or candidate will not reflect the community preference>
> Two points -
>
> 1. The problem you've just outlined only arises if every member of the
> commmunity is forced to vote. Voting, for the most part, is optional IRL.
> The same must be even more true in MUDs, because forcing a vote will
> alienate the large majority of your players who are there to hack 'n slash
> or chat, and who don't really care about the way the MUD is governed. So,
> if, by your example, only 55% of your population holds a strong opinion on
> the matter, chances are that your voter turnout will not be much more than
> that. (Assuming mildly-opinionated voters will be balanced by
> strongly-opinionated non-voters.) So... To determined the interests of the
> population, hold a vote. To determine how strongly that opinion is held,
> make voting optional, or go one step further and make it a slight hassle to
> place your vote. Only dedicated lobbyists will go to out-of game web-pages,
> and jump though additional hoops to make their opinions known.
Good call on making them jump through hoops to vote. I've never understood
why Americans get so emphatic that it should be easy to vote, except
insofar as making it easy to vote helps certain political factions. It
certainly does nothing for finding out what the preference of the
community (if an abstract notion can be said to have a preference at all).
> The solution I've just proposed is not a particularly unique or original
> one, as the two variables I describe - the results of the vote, and the
> number of voters - are already used by pundits in this very manner. In
> Canada, at least, voter turnout is relatively high in federal elections,
> while very few people vote in municipal elections. This leads to the
> conclusion that international trade policy is generally held to be more
> important, and elicit stronger opinions then what day my garbage is
> collected. (No offense to any would-be municipal politicians in this group.
> :p )
Chuckle, good point.
> Holding separate ballots on different occassions for each issue is also a
> way to ensure that people don't voice an opinion about issues that they
> don't really care about.
Another good call.
<stuff snipped about the useful function that special interest lobby
groups have by allowing people who care more about an issue to have a
greater effect on it>
>
> And 2. Is there a way to build this extra influence into the system?
>
> Ex - Some race car games artificially enhance the capabilities of vehicles
> being driven by players who are falling off the pace. The idea is to level
> the playing field, so that the players battle it out on the turns throughout
> the course of the entire race, instead of having the race won off the
> starting line - the assumption being that the former scenario is more fun.
>
> Is this kind of idea applicable in a MUD? Avoid the tyranny of the majority
> by playing with the odds to grant the minority an advantage? This tactic is
> already applied on a micro scale - ex. NPCs don't help Necromancers so make
> their spells more powerful - but can it be applied to the community at
> large?
Hmm, I'm not sure that is applicable. The reasoning behind it in terms of
gameplay is to make it more fun, but I'd think the reasoning behind voting
mechanisms for players is to accurately reflect community preference
(though I'll grant that some players find elections fun by nature).
--matt - Community Relations Lovecraft
- Community Relations Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- Community Relations Lovecraft
- Community Relations Marian Griffith
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Sellers, Michael
- Community Relations Lovecraft
- Community Relations J C Lawrence
- Community Relations Lovecraft
- Community Relations J C Lawrence
- Community Relations Koster, Raph
- Community Relations Jon A. Lambert
- Community Relations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Community Relations Lovecraft
- Community Relations Jon A. Lambert
- Community Relations Lovecraft
- Community Relations Jon A. Lambert
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Community Relations Jon A. Lambert
- Community Relations J C Lawrence
- Community Relations Wes Connell
- Community Relations Marc Bowden
- Community Relations Dundee
- Community Relations J C Lawrence
- Community Relations J C Lawrence
- Community Relations F. Randall Farmer
- Community Relations Dr. Cat
- Community Relations J C Lawrence
- Community Relations Koster, Raph
- Community Relations Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- Community Relations Matthew Mihaly
- Commercial-use Restrictions on Code Bases (was: help me find 100% fre (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Commercial-use Restrictions on Code Bases (was: help me find 100% fre (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Databases (was Commercial-use Restrictions on Code Bases) Charles Hughes
- Databases (was Commercial-use Restrictions on Code Bases) cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- Databases (was Commercial-use Restrictions on Code Bases) Jon A. Lambert
- Databases (was Commercial-use Restrictions on Code Bases) Jon A. Lambert
- Databases (was Commercial-use Restrictions on Code Bases) J C Lawrence
- Mud-Dev FAQ part I Marian Griffith
- Mud-Dev FAQ part II Marian Griffith
- META: List goals (was OS Inspiration) J C Lawrence
- Valhalla license? CFrancy@aol.com
- Valhalla license? Matthew Mihaly
- Valhalla license? Richard Woolcock
- Planet/Solar System Generation Wes Connell
- Planet/Solar System Generation icecube@ihug.co.nz
- Planet/Solar System Generation Christopher Allen
- Planet/Solar System Generation J C Lawrence
- Planet/Solar System Generation Nolan Darilek
- Planet/Solar System Generation Wes Connell
- Planet/Solar System Generation Richard Woolcock
- How to handle/display partial language skill Joe Kingry
- How to handle/display partial language skill Greg Underwood
- How to handle/display partial language skill Wes Connell
- How to handle/display partial language skill Matt Chatterley
- Signing off... IronWolf
- Simulated Populations phlUID
- Simulated Populations Charles Hughes
- Simulated Populations Vladimir Prelovac
- Simulated Populations phlUID
- Simulated Populations Dundee
- Simulated Populations Wes Connell
- Simulated Populations Nicolai Hansen
- Simulated Populations J C Lawrence
- Simulated Populations J C Lawrence
- Business Licenses CFrancy@aol.com
- Business Licenses Bruce
- Business Licenses J C Lawrence
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? (fwd) Wes Connell
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? (fwd) Erik Jarvi
- Multiply oriented interactive worlds... Justin Rogers
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? J C Lawrence
- [adv-mud] Topic list repost (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [adv-mud] Spellbound Hierarchy and Keys (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [adv-mud] Spellbound Hierarchy and Keys (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [adv-mud] Better Grammer Detection J C Lawrence
- [adv-mud] MUD-Dev vs. adv-mud J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev vs. adv-mud phlUID
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? phlUID
- (fwd) Avatarism and Role-Playing Game Design claw@kanga.nu
- Starlane test Joel Kelso
- hoho Matthew Mihaly
- Current Status of Middle Earth Online Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- ScryMUD 2.0.10 released. Ben Greear
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? J C Lawrence
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? Ben Greear
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? J C Lawrence
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? Wes Connell
- [adv-mud] What good is a hero when nobody knows? J C Lawrence
- Some new Library references J C Lawrence