September 1999

• Battle Systems Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
• • Battle Systems Matthew Mihaly
  • • Battle Systems Richard Woolcock
    • • Battle Systems Matthew Mihaly
      • • Battle Systems Richard Woolcock
  • Battle Systems Mik Clarke
  • • Battle Systems Greg Miller
  • Battle Systems Ben Greear
  • • Battle Systems Matthew Mihaly
    • • Battle Systems Greg Miller
  • Battle Systems Christopher Allen
  • Battle Systems Batis
  • Battle Systems Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • Battle Systems Richard Ross
  • • Battle Systems Matthew Mihaly
• semi-OT: Alan Cox is a MUD hacker Adam Wiggins
• • semi-OT: Alan Cox is a MUD hacker Ben Greear
• Graphical Mud Design JT Herring
• • Graphical Mud Design Chris Gray
  • Graphical Mud Design David
• ScryMUD is offically open to the public. Ben Greear
• • ScryMUD is offically open to the public. Chris Gray
  • • ScryMUD is offically open to the public. Ben Greear
  • ScryMUD is offically open to the public. Ben Greear
• IMP (Interactive Mud Protocol?) Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
• • IMP (Interactive Mud Protocol?) J C Lawrence
• Its not a MUD...is it? J C Lawrence
• An Introduction Hess, Ian {Ian} *CTR*
• • An Introduction Caliban Tiresias Darklock
  • • An Introduction Mik Clarke
    • An Introduction Greg Miller
    • • An Introduction Ilya, SCC, Game Commando
      • • An Introduction Matthew Mihaly
      • An Introduction Jeremy Music "Sterling"
      • • An Introduction Matthew Mihaly
        • • An Introduction Jeremy Music "Sterling"
        • An Introduction Hess, Ian {Ian} *CTR*
        • • An Introduction Wes Connell
        • An Introduction Greg Miller
  • An Introduction Albert
• The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Tony Wilkinson
• • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jeremy Music "Sterling"
  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Marc Bowden
  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Sellers, Michael
    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
      • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Tony Wilkinson
      • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
        • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Ilya, SCC, Game Commando
          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
          • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jon A. Lambert
          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
            • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Travis Casey
            • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Wes Connell
              • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
              • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Dundee
              • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Dundee
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
                      On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Dundee wrote:
                      > And by PKing I mean only, "non-consensual pvp combat".
                      
                      PK stands for Player Killing. It refers to one player character causing
                      the death of another. It does not say anything about the motivations of
                      the parties involved. It also only covers an actual *death* of one
                      player at the hands of another. Otherwise it's only an attempted PK.
                      (Note that players may engage in combat without meaning to kill one another.)
                      
                      I use PvP to indicate any aggressive/harmful action that one player may
                      commit against another; this includes stealing from them, attack them
                      (even without intent to kill), blinding them, silencing them, paralyzing
                      them, and so forth. Take Arctic: actual PK is (somewhat) rare, but
                      PvP is very common.
                      
                      > Generally I see people use "PvP" to mean consensual combat, and "PK" to
                      > mean non-consensual combat. But by all means, if you have a problem with
                      > those terms, I'll write out the long version each time.
                      
                      As I said, I think that you're attaching a lot more to those terms than
                      is really deserved. Perhaps we need new acronyms (along with coresponding
                      entries in the FAQ): maybe CPH (consensual player harm) versus NCPH
                      (non-consensual player harm)?
                      
                      In the meantime I think that "consensual PK" and "non-consensual PK"
                      should cover it, even if not entirely accurate.
                      
                      > Well, there is a distinction whether you like it or not. Consensual combat
                      > is great fun for both parties. Non-consensual combat is not.
                      
                      Again, not true. That may be true for *you*...
                      
                      Secondly, there is most certainly a distinction, but it's a very foggy one,
                      like most moral/justice-related issues. For example:
                      
                      - You join clan A. You have no interest in PvP, but clan A has a longstanding
                      fued with clan B, and they usually attack each other on sight. You are
                      wandering through the wilderness and get attacked my a member of clan B.
                      Did you 'consent' to this by knowingly joining the clan?
                      
                      - You loot a treasure chest and find a glowing gem which appears to have
                      magical properties. You sell the gem to a stranger, telling them that
                      it is a magic gem. Some time later they discover that the gem is not
                      magic at all; they return and request a refund, since the item was not
                      as advertised. You say, "too bad." They attack you. Is this
                      consensual, since you commited the first 'crime'?
                      
                      - You are a mage, and you summon several gray goblin soldiers to assist
                      you in combat. While walking through town, the goblins notice a dwarf
                      (whom they have a racial hatred for) and attack. The dwarf realizes he
                      cannot best them all, but he realizes that if he takes out their
                      summoner, they will disappear. He attacks you. Is this consensual?
                      
                      - You pickpocket a warrior for a few coins. He notices and attacks you.
                      Is this consensual?
                      
                      I'm not looking for specific answers to these questions; I'm demonstrating
                      that it's not always as simple as, "Excuse me, may I PK you please?"
                      
                      > Also, non-consensual combat will get you kicked off my mud. Consensual
                      > combat is fine-n-dandy.
                      
                      I imagine that for any mud of a descent size, it would take several
                      admin working 24 hours a day to try to police this, and even then you
                      have only the word of the combatents unless you keep full logs of
                      everything that ever goes on.
                      
                      > Likewise, going to a paintball game and shooting other paintball players
                      > doesn't allow for the same range of emotions as, say, going to the mall and
                      > shooting people with my paintball gun. You should see how emotional they
                      > get. The mall should thank me for making their shopping experience
                      > non-boring.
                      
                      This is a matter of stated intent. If you log onto a MUD which claims,
                      on the startup page, "We do not allow PK or any sort of player versus player
                      aggression of any sort", then yes - someone attacking or otherwise trying
                      to harm me is something I would find pretty distasteful.
                      
                      If you log onto a mud where the startup page says, "Player versus player
                      aggression is allowed, but not encouraged, here. Anyone discovered
                      using this to harass other players or otherwise PK out-of-character will
                      not be tolerated", then I would not immediately take exception to
                      an attack. Rather I would try to determine if the attacker had a good,
                      in-character reason for doing so before judging them.
                      
                      If you log onto a mud where the startup page says, "Player versus player
                      aggression is an active part of daily life here on <X> MUD. Be prepared
                      to defend yourself. Excessive PK or other harassment will not be
                      tolerated.", then you should not be in the slightest bit surprised when
                      you are attacked or stolen from or whatever. This is what (more or less)
                      Arctic says when you log on; it's also what my mud (if I ever put it back
                      online, that is) says.
                      
                      As long as people are clearly aware of the policy, I don't see a problem.
                      Obviously most malls have a no-paintballing policy, although it's not
                      really the *mall* that is that way, but more that our society is that
                      way by default. I don't consider muds to be PvP-free by default.
                      
                      > Oddly enough, though, they just don't appreciate what a good pk can do for
                      > an otherwise boring mall.
                      
                      Hell, I'd shop at a mall that allowed sporadic paintball wars. Just as
                      long as people were well aware of that when they came in.
                      
                      > And in any case, it still says nothing about the sorts of people who have
                      > fun at other people expense.
                      
                      And again I say that you assume too much by saying that PK is, by default,
                      having fun at someone else's expense. My guess is that you have just
                      never played a MUD with a very good PvP atmosphere. I recommend Arctic.
                      
                      > If you think it's great fun to be mean to
                      > people, then there *is* something wrong with you.
                      
                      *sigh* And why does PK == being mean to people? I get the feeling that
                      we are talking about something altogether different when you make statements
                      like this. Perhaps I should go back to lurking, as obviously this is a
                      very emotional issue and not one that you (or others) want to explore in
                      a rational fashion.
                      
                      > They aren't the sorts of people that I want to hang with, nor subject my
                      > other users to.
                      
                      I'm a PKer. I love it. I'm pretty much unwilling to play muds which
                      don't allow it. (There are some exceptions.)
                      
                      I've also been an active member on this mailing list for getting on four
                      years now. So obviously, since I am one of sorts of people that you don't
                      want to hang out with, why do you put up with reading this list? Obviously
                      I am a psycopathic idiot who is only out to glean pleasure from the pain
                      of others, and have nothing useful to contribute.
                      
                      > If I just wanted to jack with my players then I'd wander
                      > around and kill them willy nilly myself, zero-out their hard-earned skills,
                      > take their kewl lewt, etc. That'd really make their blood boil.
                      
                      Well, honestly, some of the most exciting (and fun) moments have been stuff
                      like this. Like the time on Arctic that a hoarde of dragons swept over
                      Tarsis and leveled the city. Or on Shadowdale when the gods stagged an
                      invasion of the city by the goblin armies.
                      
                      > Some sort of war could be fun: structured PvP combat. But random mugging
                      > is just worthless. It's impossible to have any amount of it without the
                      > entire game revolving around it.
                      
                      So what you're saying is that Arctic's 6 years of success are impossible, and
                      therefore, it must not truly exist? (And Arctic isn't the only example,
                      just my personal favorite.)
                      
                      Wow, this thread really has my blood boiling. I think I'll go log onto
                      a mud and kill some random players. (just kidding...maybe?)
                      
                      Adam
                    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                      • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                      • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                        • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
                        • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                        • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Dundee
                        • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? J C Lawrence
                    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Chris Turner
                    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jon A. Lambert
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Asmodeus
                  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Dundee
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                    • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Mik Clarke
                      • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                        • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Sellers, Michael
                          • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                            • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? J C Lawrence
                              • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                                • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
                                • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Dundee
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jon A. Lambert
              • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jon A. Lambert
              • • The Relationship between pkers and monster A I? Sellers, Michael
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Mik Clarke
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jeremy Music "Sterling"
                  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jon A. Lambert
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Travis S. Casey
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
            • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Sellers, Michael
            • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Zaid Sayeed
              • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Solmyr of the Azure Star
              • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Sellers, Michael
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Solmyr of the Azure Star
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                      • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                        • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
                            • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                          • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Laurel Fan
                            • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                              • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                            • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                          • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Travis Casey
                          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                            • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Travis S. Casey
                              • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                      • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Solmyr of the Azure Star
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
                      • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Solmyr of the Azure Star
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Sellers, Michael
                    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Solmyr of the Azure Star
                      • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
          • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? JT Herring
          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
        • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Kylotan
    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Mik Clarke
    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? David Holz
  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Mik Clarke
  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
• Skill Power vs Skill Rarity Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
• • Skill Power vs Skill Rarity Mik Clarke
• Consensual/PvP/PK Ilya, Game Commandos
• Announcement Locke / Mad Merv
• • Announcement J C Lawrence
  • Announcement Greg Miller
• Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Spin
• • Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Travis S. Casey
  • Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Adam Wiggins
  • • Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Ilya, Game Commandos
    • Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Mik Clarke
• Attracting players // TMC // 'admin' type reviewing Ilya, Game Commandos
• • Attracting players // TMC // 'admin' type reviewing J C Lawrence
  • • Attracting players // TMC // 'admin' type reviewing Emil Eifrém
• Attracting players Koster, Raph
• • Attracting players Dominic J. Eidson
  • Attracting players Matthew Mihaly
  • Attracting players John Hopson
  • • Attracting players David Bennett
    • • Attracting players Ilya, Game Commandos
    • Attracting players Koster, Raph
    • Attracting players The MUD Connector - Administrator
  • Attracting players Dundee
  • Attracting players Adam Wiggins
  • • Attracting players Matthew Mihaly
    • Attracting players Koster, Raph
    • • Attracting players Adam Wiggins
      • • Attracting players Ilya, Game Commandos
        • Attracting players Emil Eifrém
  • Attracting players Mik Clarke
  • Attracting players The MUD Connector - Administrator
  • Attracting players Petri Virkkula
  • • Attracting players Koster, Raph
    • Attracting players Matthew Mihaly
  • Attracting players Koster, Raph
  • • Attracting players Matthew Mihaly
    • • Attracting players David Bennett
      • • Attracting players Greg Miller
      • Attracting players Laurel Fan
      • • Attracting players Scatter
      • Attracting players Andrew Wilson
      • Attracting players Caliban Tiresias Darklock
      • • Attracting players Greg Miller
        • • Attracting players Caliban Tiresias Darklock
          • • Attracting players Greg Miller
      • Attracting players Greg Miller
  • Attracting players Matthew Mihaly
  • attracting players Par Winzell
  • • attracting players David Bennett
    • • attracting players Mud Imp
      • • attracting players Marc Bowden
        • attracting players adam@treyarch.com
        • • attracting players Kevin Scott London
          • attracting players Ben Greear
          • • attracting players Wes Connell
          • attracting players Marc Bowden
          • • attracting players Willowreed@aol.com
          • attracting players Mordengaard
          • • attracting players adam@treyarch.com
            • • attracting players Jon A. Lambert
            • attracting players David Bennett
      • attracting players Marc Bowden
  • Attracting players mrkelley@one.net
  • • Attracting players Louis
  • Attracting players Matt Mihaly
• chess Matthew Mihaly
• • chess Robin Cloutman
• an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
• • an essay on PK J C Lawrence
  • an essay on PK Marian Griffith
  • • an essay on PK Jeremy Music "Sterling"
    • • an essay on PK Chris Turner
      • • an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
        • • an essay on PK Chris Turner
          • • an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
            • an essay on PK Charles Hughes
            • • an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
              • • an essay on PK Chris Turner
                • • an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
  • an essay on PK Matthew Mihaly
  • • an essay on PK Jon A. Lambert
    • • an essay on PK Matthew Mihaly
      • • an essay on PK Ilya, Game Commandos
        • an essay on PK Marian Griffith
        • • an essay on PK Matthew Mihaly
          • • an essay on PK Rhonda Alexander
            • • an essay on PK Ilya, Game Commandos
              • • an essay on PK Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                • • an essay on PK Laurel Fan
                  • an essay on PK Miroslav Silovic
              • an essay on PK Matthew Mihaly
              • an essay on PK Marian Griffith
              • • an essay on PK Matthew Mihaly
          • an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
          • an essay on PK J C Lawrence
  • an essay on PK Richard Bartle
  • • an essay on PK Jason Spangler
    • • an essay on PK Willowreed@aol.com
      • • an essay on PK Koster, Raph
    • an essay on PK Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • an essay on PK Richard Bartle
• Might not make right... Spin
• META: MUD-Dev visibility J C Lawrence
• Seeking one or two creative C coders for MURP project. Darin De Stefano
• Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• • Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Quzah
  • • Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Jp Calderone
    • • Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Joel Kelso
    • Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Ola Fosheim Grøstad
    • Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• Dynamic muds ryan
• • Dynamic muds Asmodeus
  • Dynamic muds Robin Cloutman
  • • Dynamic muds ryan
    • • Dynamic muds Ilya, Game Commandos
      • Dynamic muds Colin Coghill
      • • Dynamic muds J C Lawrence
        • • Dynamic muds Emil Eifrém
          • • Dynamic muds Katrina McClelan
            • • Dynamic muds Ilya, Game Commandos
              • • Dynamic muds David Bennett
                • Dynamic muds Christopher Allen - GM Fangs
                • Dynamic muds Spin
                • • Dynamic muds Ilya, Game Commandos
                  • • Dynamic muds Spin
                • Dynamic muds Chris Turner
                • • Dynamic muds Adam Wiggins
      • Dynamic muds Mik Clarke
      • Dynamic muds Arlie Stephens
  • Dynamic muds Eli Stevens {KiZurich}
  • Dynamic muds Greg Miller
  • Dynamic muds Petri Virkkula
  • • Dynamic muds Ben Greear
    • • Dynamic muds Greg Miller
      • • Dynamic muds Colin Coghill
      • Dynamic muds Katrina McClelan
      • • Dynamic muds Marian Griffith
        • • Dynamic muds Katrina McClelan
          • • Dynamic muds Alex Oren
      • Dynamic muds Eli Stevens {KiZurich}
    • Dynamic muds Chris Gray
  • Dynamic muds Ronan Farrell
  • Dynamic muds Petri Virkkula
  • Dynamic muds Christopher Allen
  • Dynamic muds Petri Virkkula
  • Dynamic muds Justin Lockshaw
  • • Dynamic muds Mik Clarke
    • • Dynamic muds Marian Griffith
      • • Dynamic muds Travis S. Casey
        • • Dynamic muds Marian Griffith
• thoughts on 'realism' Matthew Mihaly
• Tactical Interest Spin
• Tactical Interest Spin
• • Tactical Interest Adam Wiggins
• what players want, what I want Ilya, Game Commandos
• • what players want, what I want Matthew Mihaly
  • • what players want, what I want Ilya, Game Commandos
  • what players want, what I want Justin Lockshaw
  • • what players want, what I want Caliban Tiresias Darklock
• Creating a mudlib Solmyr of the Azure Star
• Mobiles AI and automation Crystalmir
• • Mobiles AI and automation Matthew Mihaly
  • • Mobiles AI and automation Marc Bowden
  • Mobiles AI and automation Mik Clarke
• This is just... STRANGE Dundee
• Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
• Ultima Online Steve Sparks
• • Ultima Online Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• Peer pressure and cooperation Miroslav Silovic
• Effiecient interaction (was deliver failed) Spin
• ADMIN: We're moving again J C Lawrence
• "Online migration and population mobility" Koster, Raph
• • "Online migration and population mobility" Koster, Raph