September 1999

• Battle Systems Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
• • Battle Systems Matthew Mihaly
  • • Battle Systems Richard Woolcock
    • • Battle Systems Matthew Mihaly
      • • Battle Systems Richard Woolcock
  • Battle Systems Mik Clarke
  • • Battle Systems Greg Miller
  • Battle Systems Ben Greear
  • • Battle Systems Matthew Mihaly
    • • Battle Systems Greg Miller
  • Battle Systems Christopher Allen
  • Battle Systems Batis
  • Battle Systems Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • Battle Systems Richard Ross
  • • Battle Systems Matthew Mihaly
• semi-OT: Alan Cox is a MUD hacker Adam Wiggins
• • semi-OT: Alan Cox is a MUD hacker Ben Greear
• Graphical Mud Design JT Herring
• • Graphical Mud Design Chris Gray
  • Graphical Mud Design David
• ScryMUD is offically open to the public. Ben Greear
• • ScryMUD is offically open to the public. Chris Gray
  • • ScryMUD is offically open to the public. Ben Greear
  • ScryMUD is offically open to the public. Ben Greear
• IMP (Interactive Mud Protocol?) Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
• • IMP (Interactive Mud Protocol?) J C Lawrence
• Its not a MUD...is it? J C Lawrence
• An Introduction Hess, Ian {Ian} *CTR*
• • An Introduction Caliban Tiresias Darklock
  • • An Introduction Mik Clarke
    • An Introduction Greg Miller
    • • An Introduction Ilya, SCC, Game Commando
      • • An Introduction Matthew Mihaly
      • An Introduction Jeremy Music "Sterling"
      • • An Introduction Matthew Mihaly
        • • An Introduction Jeremy Music "Sterling"
        • An Introduction Hess, Ian {Ian} *CTR*
        • • An Introduction Wes Connell
        • An Introduction Greg Miller
  • An Introduction Albert
• The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Tony Wilkinson
• • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jeremy Music "Sterling"
  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Marc Bowden
  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Sellers, Michael
    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
      • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Tony Wilkinson
      • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
          On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Tony Wilkinson wrote:
          
          > Mike Sellers wrote:
          > >Beyond this though, I think that often MUDs teach players that it's just
          > >more fun and/or more rewarding to attack other players than it is to attack
          > >monsters or solve puzzles/quests. In this light, it's not that PKers have
          > a
          > >*need* to hurt other people, but that in the scheme of the MUD, they don't
          > >need the other people -- they are thus expendable -- and the other people
          > >represent a concentration of resources (gold, objects, attention, etc.)
          > that
          > >the PKers need. Other PCs are thus low-hanging fruit just waiting to be
          > >plucked.
          > >
          >
          > I think that's an excellent point. From my experience of MUD's with pker
          > problems, it is generally MUCH more worth while (as far as "loot" is
          > concerned) to kill other people than monsters. At the very least they have
          > a full set of armour and provisions. Does the "only loot 1 item" (ala EQ)
          > work? Well yes it does make it less worth while but "realism" is sacrifised
          > I guess.
          
          We have a very developed pk system, and players actually do not get to
          loot any items from other dead players. Realistic? No. Big deal though.
          None of the players have ever complained or even suggested it that I can
          remember, and realism obviously isn't really the goal of any fantasy or
          sci-fi mud. The goal of most muds is to make a fun game, not a realistic
          world.
          
          >
          > I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of pkers do it because they
          > are social misfits (although I am sure some are). I can't help thinking that
          > most are either bored or think they "need the loot". The first of these I
          > believe could be dealt with by making genuine interesting and challenging
          > quests and by making monster FUN to fight. Perhaps even making quests which
          > give players things killing other people cannot do. Titles or other status
          > simbols might work here.
          
          I am a bit perplexed by all this discussion as to why people p-kill. I'm
          also annoyed by the characterization of p-killers as immature kids, etc.
          This may be the case in games with crap systems, but imho, a proper p-kill
          system is an integral part of the game. Why focus your game on killing
          monsters? Heck, you don't need a mud to do that. You could just play Quake
          one player, or Diablo with some friends. Muds, unlike the table-top games
          which erroneously are used as the model for muds, allow you to pit player
          against player, and as someone pointed out, players are and are going to
          continue to be (for a long time at least), a lot more interesting as
          opponents than monsters.
          
          The fact is, the AI on muds sucks. It's horrible (Achaea included). It
          doesn't deserve to be called intelligence. Thus, you can either spend your
          time trying to code artificial intelligence in that is good enough to play
          at at level at least equal to an average person, or you could just use
          real intelligence as the challenge by designing the game to be player vs.
          player in as many ways as possible. Individual combat is one of those
          ways. It's certainly not the only one, but it's one of them, so why not
          use it?
          
          I know some people object to the idea of allowing players to be killed by
          other players unless they want to, and that's fine. We all run our muds
          with different philosophies. Mine tends to be, however, that giving
          players a life without significant tragedy (being kiled by a player is
          much more traumatic than being killed by a monster, as you know that you
          were bested by another person, rather than some computer) also means
          giving them a life without significant victories. Player vs. player goes
          beyond the game. It's real life. It's you, a real person, vs. another real
          person. The characters are just the method for interacting. You vs. a
          monster is just a trivial game, like Space Invaders. It's the sort of game
          where you will never experience great rushes of ectasy from victory, or
          crushing despair from defeat, because you aren't provided with a reason to
          care beyond the state of your character or some other fairly meaningless
          stat. Whatever you did to get those stats (whether it be xp, equipment, or
          whatever you lose when a mob kills you) can be redone, either with the
          same character or with a new one. Yes, it's a loss of time and energy (and
          in a pay game, possibly money), but you talk to any pro athlete, and they
          will tell you that losing the World Cup, or the Stanley Cup, or the
          America's Cup, or the Superbowl, or whatever is a lot less, in the moment,
          about money than it is about having _lost_. You just got your ass kicked
          by other people...people who are, apparently, _better_ than you at
          something that you try hard to be good at. Likewise, triumphing in
          something you care about over someone who is trying hard is a good
          feeling. It's validating.
          
          
          I don't, incidentally, discount the interaction gotten from teaming to go
          take out a monster, though I think that this is still a relatively
          backwards and primitive gaming model and a leftover from table top games
          (I'm not dissing table top games. They have their strengths, and muds have
          their strengths. Most muds ignore the potential of muds by trying to
          imitate table-top games though.)
          
          Anyway, I have babbled long enough. My main points are that player killing
          is healthy competition. I allow people to be p-killed in Achaea pretty
          much everywhere but 1 location in the game, unless they walk in grace.
          While they are graced (only way to get it is to die and pray to Me for
          salvation of your soul), they can't do anything aggressive, including
          killing mobiles or giving any orders to their city-state's military (if
          they are in a position to give such orders), etc. Do players get pissed
          off sometimes about being killed? Definitely. Do they occassionally even
          quit the game because of it? Yep. But you know what? I would estimate that
          75% of players who "quit" in a huff over something like that come back
          within 1 week. The reason? If they care enough that getting beaten by
          another person in Achaea bothers them that much, then it means they care,
          and if they care, they'll be back.
          
          --matt
        • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Ilya, SCC, Game Commando
          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
          • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jon A. Lambert
          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
            • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Travis Casey
            • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Wes Connell
              • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
              • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Dundee
              • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Dundee
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
                    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                      • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                      • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                        • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
                        • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                        • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Dundee
                        • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? J C Lawrence
                    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Chris Turner
                    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jon A. Lambert
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Asmodeus
                  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Dundee
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                    • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Mik Clarke
                      • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                        • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Sellers, Michael
                          • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                            • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? J C Lawrence
                              • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                                • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
                                • • The Relationship between pkers andmonster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Dundee
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jon A. Lambert
              • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jon A. Lambert
              • • The Relationship between pkers and monster A I? Sellers, Michael
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Mik Clarke
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jeremy Music "Sterling"
                  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Jon A. Lambert
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Travis S. Casey
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
            • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Sellers, Michael
            • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Zaid Sayeed
              • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Solmyr of the Azure Star
              • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Sellers, Michael
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Solmyr of the Azure Star
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                      • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                        • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
                            • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                          • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Laurel Fan
                            • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                              • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                            • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                          • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Travis Casey
                          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                            • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Travis S. Casey
                              • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
                      • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Solmyr of the Azure Star
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
                      • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Solmyr of the Azure Star
                  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Sellers, Michael
                    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Solmyr of the Azure Star
                      • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
                • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
          • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? JT Herring
          • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
        • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Kylotan
    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
    • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Mik Clarke
    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? David Holz
  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Greg Miller
  • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Mik Clarke
  • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Matthew Mihaly
    • • The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? Adam Wiggins
• Skill Power vs Skill Rarity Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
• • Skill Power vs Skill Rarity Mik Clarke
• Consensual/PvP/PK Ilya, Game Commandos
• Announcement Locke / Mad Merv
• • Announcement J C Lawrence
  • Announcement Greg Miller
• Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Spin
• • Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Travis S. Casey
  • Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Adam Wiggins
  • • Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Ilya, Game Commandos
    • Tactical Interest Was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #142 - 4 msgs Mik Clarke
• Attracting players // TMC // 'admin' type reviewing Ilya, Game Commandos
• • Attracting players // TMC // 'admin' type reviewing J C Lawrence
  • • Attracting players // TMC // 'admin' type reviewing Emil Eifrém
• Attracting players Koster, Raph
• • Attracting players Dominic J. Eidson
  • Attracting players Matthew Mihaly
  • Attracting players John Hopson
  • • Attracting players David Bennett
    • • Attracting players Ilya, Game Commandos
    • Attracting players Koster, Raph
    • Attracting players The MUD Connector - Administrator
  • Attracting players Dundee
  • Attracting players Adam Wiggins
  • • Attracting players Matthew Mihaly
    • Attracting players Koster, Raph
    • • Attracting players Adam Wiggins
      • • Attracting players Ilya, Game Commandos
        • Attracting players Emil Eifrém
  • Attracting players Mik Clarke
  • Attracting players The MUD Connector - Administrator
  • Attracting players Petri Virkkula
  • • Attracting players Koster, Raph
    • Attracting players Matthew Mihaly
  • Attracting players Koster, Raph
  • • Attracting players Matthew Mihaly
    • • Attracting players David Bennett
      • • Attracting players Greg Miller
      • Attracting players Laurel Fan
      • • Attracting players Scatter
      • Attracting players Andrew Wilson
      • Attracting players Caliban Tiresias Darklock
      • • Attracting players Greg Miller
        • • Attracting players Caliban Tiresias Darklock
          • • Attracting players Greg Miller
      • Attracting players Greg Miller
  • Attracting players Matthew Mihaly
  • attracting players Par Winzell
  • • attracting players David Bennett
    • • attracting players Mud Imp
      • • attracting players Marc Bowden
        • attracting players adam@treyarch.com
        • • attracting players Kevin Scott London
          • attracting players Ben Greear
          • • attracting players Wes Connell
          • attracting players Marc Bowden
          • • attracting players Willowreed@aol.com
          • attracting players Mordengaard
          • • attracting players adam@treyarch.com
            • • attracting players Jon A. Lambert
            • attracting players David Bennett
      • attracting players Marc Bowden
  • Attracting players mrkelley@one.net
  • • Attracting players Louis
  • Attracting players Matt Mihaly
• chess Matthew Mihaly
• • chess Robin Cloutman
• an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
• • an essay on PK J C Lawrence
  • an essay on PK Marian Griffith
  • • an essay on PK Jeremy Music "Sterling"
    • • an essay on PK Chris Turner
      • • an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
        • • an essay on PK Chris Turner
          • • an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
            • an essay on PK Charles Hughes
            • • an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
              • • an essay on PK Chris Turner
                • • an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
  • an essay on PK Matthew Mihaly
  • • an essay on PK Jon A. Lambert
    • • an essay on PK Matthew Mihaly
      • • an essay on PK Ilya, Game Commandos
        • an essay on PK Marian Griffith
        • • an essay on PK Matthew Mihaly
          • • an essay on PK Rhonda Alexander
            • • an essay on PK Ilya, Game Commandos
              • • an essay on PK Caliban Tiresias Darklock
                • • an essay on PK Laurel Fan
                  • an essay on PK Miroslav Silovic
              • an essay on PK Matthew Mihaly
              • an essay on PK Marian Griffith
              • • an essay on PK Matthew Mihaly
          • an essay on PK Adam Wiggins
          • an essay on PK J C Lawrence
  • an essay on PK Richard Bartle
  • • an essay on PK Jason Spangler
    • • an essay on PK Willowreed@aol.com
      • • an essay on PK Koster, Raph
    • an essay on PK Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • an essay on PK Richard Bartle
• Might not make right... Spin
• META: MUD-Dev visibility J C Lawrence
• Seeking one or two creative C coders for MURP project. Darin De Stefano
• Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• • Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Quzah
  • • Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Jp Calderone
    • • Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Joel Kelso
    • Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Ola Fosheim Grøstad
    • Algorithms for an Infinite Universe Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• Dynamic muds ryan
• • Dynamic muds Asmodeus
  • Dynamic muds Robin Cloutman
  • • Dynamic muds ryan
    • • Dynamic muds Ilya, Game Commandos
      • Dynamic muds Colin Coghill
      • • Dynamic muds J C Lawrence
        • • Dynamic muds Emil Eifrém
          • • Dynamic muds Katrina McClelan
            • • Dynamic muds Ilya, Game Commandos
              • • Dynamic muds David Bennett
                • Dynamic muds Christopher Allen - GM Fangs
                • Dynamic muds Spin
                • • Dynamic muds Ilya, Game Commandos
                  • • Dynamic muds Spin
                • Dynamic muds Chris Turner
                • • Dynamic muds Adam Wiggins
      • Dynamic muds Mik Clarke
      • Dynamic muds Arlie Stephens
  • Dynamic muds Eli Stevens {KiZurich}
  • Dynamic muds Greg Miller
  • Dynamic muds Petri Virkkula
  • • Dynamic muds Ben Greear
    • • Dynamic muds Greg Miller
      • • Dynamic muds Colin Coghill
      • Dynamic muds Katrina McClelan
      • • Dynamic muds Marian Griffith
        • • Dynamic muds Katrina McClelan
          • • Dynamic muds Alex Oren
      • Dynamic muds Eli Stevens {KiZurich}
    • Dynamic muds Chris Gray
  • Dynamic muds Ronan Farrell
  • Dynamic muds Petri Virkkula
  • Dynamic muds Christopher Allen
  • Dynamic muds Petri Virkkula
  • Dynamic muds Justin Lockshaw
  • • Dynamic muds Mik Clarke
    • • Dynamic muds Marian Griffith
      • • Dynamic muds Travis S. Casey
        • • Dynamic muds Marian Griffith
• thoughts on 'realism' Matthew Mihaly
• Tactical Interest Spin
• Tactical Interest Spin
• • Tactical Interest Adam Wiggins
• what players want, what I want Ilya, Game Commandos
• • what players want, what I want Matthew Mihaly
  • • what players want, what I want Ilya, Game Commandos
  • what players want, what I want Justin Lockshaw
  • • what players want, what I want Caliban Tiresias Darklock
• Creating a mudlib Solmyr of the Azure Star
• Mobiles AI and automation Crystalmir
• • Mobiles AI and automation Matthew Mihaly
  • • Mobiles AI and automation Marc Bowden
  • Mobiles AI and automation Mik Clarke
• This is just... STRANGE Dundee
• Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
• Ultima Online Steve Sparks
• • Ultima Online Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• Peer pressure and cooperation Miroslav Silovic
• Effiecient interaction (was deliver failed) Spin
• ADMIN: We're moving again J C Lawrence
• "Online migration and population mobility" Koster, Raph
• • "Online migration and population mobility" Koster, Raph