June 1999
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Mark Gritter
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis S. Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis S. Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jp Calderone
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Cynbe ru Taren
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ben Greear
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Munt
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Darren Henderson
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Munt
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Miroslav Silovic
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Alex Oren
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Darren Henderson
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) David Bennett
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Darren Henderson
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ross Nicoll
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ross Nicoll
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ben Greear
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Chris Gray
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- IndustrialMUD J C Lawrence
- IndustrialMUD Greg Miller
- Combat (very long) Matthew Mihaly
- Combat (very long) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Combat (very long) Matthew Mihaly
- Combat (very long) Marian Griffith
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Chris Gray
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Chris Gray
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Adam Wiggins
- thoughts Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Adam Wiggins
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
On 04:01 PM 6/9/99 -0500, I personally witnessed Koster, Raph jumping up to
say:
>
>We did something like that on UO for a while--the total quantity of gold in
>the system was tied to the total size of the playerbase, and goods/gold on
>monsters (or issued by shops) was tied to how much remained in the "bank"
>(eg, not in play, either on monsters or in players' hands).
>
>The system broke because players hoarded *everything*. Soon no monsters were
>worth killing because they had no loot whatsoever, and every shop was out of
>stock and out of cash.
I started thinking about this sort of thing for UU to make up for the
open-ended playerbase, but I saw some problems when I really examined the
concept:
Allow every player a cash value of 20m where m is any random constant.
Start at 0m.
Player A logs on and plays. Pot increases to 20m.
Player A makes 10m very rapidly. Pot is now 10m.
Player B logs on. Pot increases to 30m.
Player A continues playing and makes another 10m. Pot now 20m.
Player B plays and makes 5m. Current pot now 15m.
Player A continues playing and makes another 10m. Pot now 5m.
Player B continues playing and makes another 5m. Pot empty.
Player B plays and gets nothing. Pot is empty.
Player C logs on. Pot increases to 20m.
Players A and B immediately grab 15m of it.
Player C plays and makes 5m.
All players play and make nothing.
Player D logs on. Pot rises to 20m.
Players A through C make 10m, 5m, and 5m in play. POT EMPTY.
Player D makes squat. Pot is empty.
No matter how much you increase m, there is some number D at which the
ability of existing players to acquire wealth has increased beyond the
capacity of the game to attract new players. At this point, players begin
leaving the game, which in turn DECREASES available wealth. Let's assume
that D now decides never to play again. When D is eventually idlenuked,
players A through C now have 20m in money that does not exist. Assuming
their ability to earn remains constant, all players signing on will now
encounter the same problem D encountered: their money, brought in for their
use by the game, is snapped up by the existing players before they get a
chance at it. Players A through C continue to become richer and richer.
Players D through whatever remain paupers and probably think this game
really bites.
In fact, once you hit D, *everyone* probably starts thinking this game is
really pretty pointless -- since they've whacked the ceiling, it's barely
worth playing anymore. If anyone ever figures out that number of players
increase available wealth, you can probably expect a flurry of
"up-the-ante" players to be created purely to raise the pot for existing
players. If earning ability increases with experience, you hit your ceiling
and suck out the additions to the pot even faster.
From a purely mathematical viewpoint, this approach will *never* work. Even
if the player is forced to put money back into the system, he does so
primarily to increase and extend his earning potential -- the warrior
spends the 50m on the powerful sword that allows him to kill three monsters
guarding 20m each, and now you have a 10m deficit.
(I just saw JC's post stating that it creates a "negative feedback through
hoarding and value consolidation", which is more or less what I just said,
but I'm going to post this anyway because if I saw that statement when I
first joined this list I'd wonder why and how. Maybe this isn't as elegant
as JC's statement, but it might make more sense to someone newly examining
these ideas.)
Basically, I've found that a lot of apparently good ideas fall apart when
you start examining them with variables plugged into the various places. I
was planning a "production" concept with UU, which I mentioned here, but
earlier today I pegged a similar problem in it. Basically, the thought was
that you have a limited number of any given device, as follows:
A device exists in quantity Q. It is considered scarce when there are S of
them, and abundant when there are A of them. On any given day, a number of
devices P is produced for sale. All numbers are unsigned, so there is no
negative value problem to worry about.
If Q >= A, the device is abundant, and none are produced -- supply exceeds
demand.
If Q <= S, 2 * P are produced -- demand exceeds supply.
If Q > S, production is more complex: P is scaled by where we are in the
range of scarcity to abundance. This is done with the formula of ( ( A - Q
) / ( A - S ) ) * 2 to obtain a double precision floating-point number
ranging from 2 to 0 depending on existing supply, which P is multiplied by.
The fractional portion is discarded. (Note that since we have established
previously that S < Q and Q < A we know that S < A and there can never be a
divide by zero.)
Whenever the number of a given device changes, the price is recalculated.
The recalculation is a bit more complex, since we can't allow it to drop
past 1/2 the existing price.
So we take the existing price, and calculate ( ( ( A - Q ) / ( A - S ) ) *
1.5 ) + 0.5 for the scaling factor.
Selling price is the opposite scaling factor: ( ( A - S ) / ( A - Q ) ) in
order to pay nothing when abundant (won't buy) and full normal price when
scarce. Median is half normal price.
Now we hit the problem. The player goes and finds an expensive item that's
abundant. He buys several, making them very scarce. Then he sells them at
the scarce price, making them abundant again. Then he buys again at the
abundant price. Looking at the math above, you can figure out reasonably
quickly that every time he buys the items, he buys at half normal cost C,
and every time he sells them it's at full normal cost.
So he makes ( C / 2 ) * Q in cash with each buy and sell cycle. Low-supply
items are particularly vulnerable to this, since if 5 of a device is
abundant and 1 is scarce we're only talking four purchases here. Such
devices also tend to be expensive, making it a lot easier for the rich to
get richer.
The obvious solution I'm considering now is to set the price once, after
production, and then not change it over the course of the gameplay until
the next maintenance cycle. However, this still allows players to do the
above once a day: buy an object into scarcity, and then sell it the next
day. Not as bad as the initial aspect, but I'm still not wholly comfortable
with it.
-----
| Caliban Tiresias Darklock caliban@darklock.com
| Darklock Communications http://www.darklock.com/
| U L T I M A T E U N I V E R S E I S N O T D E A D
| 774577496C6C6E457645727355626D4974H -ÊBAL::3146=- - Game Economies Greg Miller
- Game Economies Ross Nicoll
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Ross Nicoll
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Greg Munt
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Jon A. Lambert
- Game Economies Shawn Halpenny
- Game Economies Brandon J. Rickman
- Game Economies Jon A. Lambert
- Game Economies Shane King
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Nathan F Yospe
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Brandon J. Rickman
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Katrina McClelan
- Game Economies Adam Wiggins
- Game Economies Katrina McClelan
- Game Economies Albert
- Game Economies Jp Calderone
- Game Economies Laurel Fan
- Game Economies Albert
- Game Economies Charles Hughes
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Mik Clarke
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Ling
- Game Economies Ling
- Game Economies Mik Clarke
- Rooms Greg Munt
- Parsing Text Output Jon A. Lambert
- Parsing Text Output Chris Gray
- MUD-Dev request rejected Greg Miller
- Interface/Custom Clients Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing)y Mark Gritter
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing)y Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Greg Munt
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Matthew Mihaly
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Koster, Raph
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Ross Nicoll
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Richard Bartle
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or againsteach other? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Christopher Allen
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Richard Bartle
- CVS repository for ScryMUD is online at scry.wanfear.com Ben Greear
- Mihaly's Combat Greg Munt
- Mihaly's Combat Matthew Mihaly
- Looking for UML David95037@aol.com
- Looking for UML Greg Munt
- Looking for UML David95037@aol.com
- Slogans (Game Economies) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Slogans (Game Economies) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A couple Qs, and thanks Ben Greear
- Understanding and "should-ness" Matthew Mihaly
- Understanding and "should-ness" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Personalities J C Lawrence
- realism Matthew Mihaly
- Gender and Mud Development Nathan F Yospe
- Gender and Mud Development Greg Miller
- Gender and Mud Development Katrina McClelan
- Gender and Mud Development Jon A. Lambert
- Gender and Mud Development Matthew Mihaly
- Gender and Mud Development Jon A. Lambert
- Gender and Mud Development Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender and Mud Development David Holz
- Gender and Mud Development Jon A. Lambert
- Gender and Mud Development Matthew Mihaly
- Gender and Mud Development Greg Miller
- Gender and Mud Development J C Lawrence
- Gender and Mud Development Koster, Raph
- Gender and Mud Development J C Lawrence
- Gender and Mud Development Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender and Mud Development J C Lawrence
- Gender and Mud Development Koster, Raph
- Gender and Mud Development Greg Munt
- Gender and Mud Development Greg Miller
- Gender and Mud Development Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender and Mud Development Marian Griffith
- Gender and Mud Development Matthew Mihaly
- Gender and Mud Development Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender and Mud Development Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender and Mud Development Adam Wiggins
- Gender and Mud Development Travis S. Casey
- Gender and Mud Development Marian Griffith
- Newbies (was Text Parsing) John Hopson
- Newbies (was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Average play time? Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Average play time? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Average play time? Koster, Raph
- {OT} Gender and Mud Development Wendy Winkler
- AOL lawsuit (was text parsing) Koster, Raph
- Sexual archetypes claw@kanga.nu
- Systems and concepts Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Katrina McClelan
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Koster, Raph
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Greg Miller
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) J C Lawrence
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Jon A. Lambert
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Kristen Koster
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Greg Miller
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Kristen Koster
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Jon A. Lambert
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Kristen Koster
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Marian Griffith
- Tactical Combat and Traps (was the gender thread) Katrina McClelan
- Game construction and a big mistake Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game construction and a big mistake Marc Bowden
- Game construction and a big mistake Greg Miller
- Game construction and a big mistake Matthew Mihaly
- Game construction and a big mistake Willowreed@aol.com
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Koster, Raph
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) claw@kanga.nu
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Marc Bowden
- Client-Server vs. Peer-to-Peer -- Implementing DIS on the Internet claw@kanga.nu
- Goals and directions (was the gender thing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #93 - 27 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #93 - 27 msgs Greg Miller
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #93 - 27 msgs Koster, Raph
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #93 - 27 msgs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender and Mud Development (drifting off topic again) S. Patrick Gallaty
- Laws of Online World Design (was: realism) Koster, Raph
- Game construction and a big mistake Koster, Raph
- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed Adam Wiggins
- memory and speed J C Lawrence
- memory and speed J C Lawrence
- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed Adam Wiggins
- memory and speed Chris Gray
- memory and speed Miroslav Silovic
- memory and speed Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- memory and speed Mark Gritter
- memory and speed Ben Greear
- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed S. Patrick Gallaty
- memory and speed Adam Wiggins
- memory and speed Brad Leach
- memory and speed Petri Virkkula
- Virtual worlds based on real world history Greg Munt
- Stockmarkets... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Games within Games Jesse Farinacci
- ADMIN: Posting authority J C Lawrence
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- thoughts on game economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- thoughts on game economies Travis Casey
- thoughts on game economies Koster, Raph
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- thoughts on game economies Koster, Raph
- thoughts on game economies Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- thoughts on game economies Jo Dillon
- thoughts on game economies Greg Miller
- thoughts on game economies Matthew Mihaly
- thoughts on game economies Greg Miller
- thoughts on game economies Matthew Mihaly
- thoughts on game economies Jeremy Music "Sterling"
- thoughts on game economies Robert Brady
- thoughts on game economies Ling
- thoughts on game economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- thoughts on game economies Alex Oren
- thoughts on game economies Albert
- thoughts on game economies Adam Wiggins
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed Shawn Halpenny
- Game economics Matthew Mihaly
- Game economics Nathan F Yospe
- Playing the monsters David95037@aol.com
- Playing the monsters Katrina McClelan
- Playing the monsters Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- How to debug a method taking a variable list of arguments? Ben Greear
- Twisted Reality claw@kanga.nu
- ADMIN: Searching on MUD-Dev archives claw@kanga.nu
- Object Obsolescence [ WAS: thoughts on game economies ] Shawn Halpenny
- SAR Adam Wiggins
- speed problems update Matthew Mihaly
- speed problems update Quzah [softhome]
- ADMIN: NoMail Subscriptions -- please reconfigure J C Lawrence
- Fwd: Books on Compilers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- UM2 Greg Munt
- 3D Anarchy Adam Wiggins
- Properties of computer languages Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Properties of computer languages Jon Leonard
- Properties of computer languages Mark Gritter
- Properties of computer languages Cynbe ru Taren
- Properties of computer languages Travis S. Casey
- Properties of computer languages David95037@aol.com
- Properties of computer languages Travis S. Casey
- Properties of computer languages Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Properties of computer languages Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Properties of computer languages Joey Hess
- Properties of computer languages Chris Gray
- Properties of computer languages David95037@aol.com
- Properties of computer languages Adam Wiggins
- Properties of computer languages Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Properties of computer languages Mik Clarke
- Different approaches? Dani Dumitrescu
- Different approaches? Koster, Raph
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. PartyG2816@aol.com
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. Marc Hernandez
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. Jim Clark
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. PartyG2816@aol.com
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. PartyG2816@aol.com
- Game Design [Simulation] Justin Lockshaw
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #105 - 12 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #105 - 12 msgs Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #105 - 12 msgs Chris Gray
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #105 - 12 msgs Mik Clarke
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #105 - 12 msgs Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- A little off topic - anyone receiving multiple copies of list mail? Charles Hughes
- Role playing and Multiple Goals John Bertoglio
- Critiquing Muds Marian Griffith
- Critiquing Muds Koster, Raph
- Critiquing Muds Travis Casey
- Critiquing Muds Marian Griffith
- Critiquing Muds Travis Casey
- Critiquing Muds Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Critiquing Muds Marian Griffith
- Critiquing Muds Jon A. Lambert
- Critiquing Muds Koster, Raph
- Critiquing Muds Matthew Mihaly
- Critiquing Muds Koster, Raph
- Critiquing Muds Damion Schubert
- Critiquing Muds Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Critiquing Muds Michael Willey
- Critiquing Muds Jon A. Lambert
- MUD-Dev: An apology J C Lawrence