June 1999
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Mark Gritter
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis S. Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis S. Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jp Calderone
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Cynbe ru Taren
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ben Greear
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Munt
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Darren Henderson
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Munt
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Miroslav Silovic
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Alex Oren
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Darren Henderson
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) David Bennett
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Darren Henderson
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ross Nicoll
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ross Nicoll
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ben Greear
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Chris Gray
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- IndustrialMUD J C Lawrence
- IndustrialMUD Greg Miller
- Combat (very long) Matthew Mihaly
- Combat (very long) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Combat (very long) Matthew Mihaly
- Combat (very long) Marian Griffith
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Chris Gray
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Chris Gray
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Adam Wiggins
- thoughts Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Adam Wiggins
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Greg Miller
- Game Economies Ross Nicoll
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Ross Nicoll
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Greg Munt
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Jon A. Lambert
- Game Economies Shawn Halpenny
- Game Economies Brandon J. Rickman
- Game Economies Jon A. Lambert
- Game Economies Shane King
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Nathan F Yospe
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Brandon J. Rickman
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Katrina McClelan
- Game Economies Adam Wiggins
- Game Economies Katrina McClelan
- Game Economies Albert
- Game Economies Jp Calderone
- Game Economies Laurel Fan
- Game Economies Albert
- Game Economies Charles Hughes
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Mik Clarke
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Ling
- Game Economies Ling
- Game Economies Mik Clarke
- Rooms Greg Munt
- Parsing Text Output Jon A. Lambert
- Parsing Text Output Chris Gray
- MUD-Dev request rejected Greg Miller
- Interface/Custom Clients Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing)y Mark Gritter
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing)y Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Greg Munt
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Matthew Mihaly
On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Greg Munt wrote:
> A couple of things that I just thought of:
>
> Is it possible to get even a rough guesstimate on the proportion of members
> and/or posters that are involved with pay muds, rather than free muds?
First, I run a pay mud, not a free mud. It doesn't charge (yet) for
on-line time, but to advance the strenght and variety of your abilities
very far upwards takes money. Players buy credits to raise their skills
(as a particular skill goes up, they gain more abilities that are
contained within that skill). Maxxing out all your skills isn't something
most people do, but to get, for instance, all three of your class-related
skills to Transcendent (the max), would cost, if you bought the largest
amount of credits at once that you could, about, $330. Maxxing out your
character takes about $1200. You can, however, get credits for mentoring.
Once you are an experienced enough player, you can apply to be a mentor.
You can then take on proteges. If your proteges buy credits, you get 1/4
of whatever they buy, for their first four purchases.
>
> How do pay muds get all their players to part with their cash, when there
> are so many free muds around? Is it in the interests of people involved with
> them to promote the idea that all free muds are stock (rather than let's say
> "higher quality") muds, or so-called "derivative muds"? (Please don't get
> defensive about this one.)
It is definitely in my interest to promote the idea that stock muds are
crap, but then I felt that long before I started Achaea. There is an
attention to detail and customer service in a pay mud that doesn't exist
in free muds generally. It's a simply principle. In a pay mud, the
customer is king. In a free mud, all too often, the admin is king. Players
know this and can sense this. Most of our players rave about Achaea
(though presumably they wouldn't stay if they didn't), and their primary
compliment is basically two-fold. They think we are well-done, and they
like how original we are. Stocks muds of a particular flavour are, by
their nature, similar to stock muds of the same flavour.
Basically it comes down to the difference between a professional product
and a hobbyist's product I think. A pay mud operator is just likely to be
much more concerned about quality than a free-mud operator. The same
principle applies nearly everywhere in life. You might say "But what about
the linux vs. windows debate? Surely linux is simply much better, and it's
free.", but I disagree with that argument. From an economic standpoint,
something like linux is total crap, because it's too difficult for the
average person to install and deal with. I don't level any of these
specific criticisms at muds (indeed, mine is annoyingly difficult to
learn), but the idea applies. Free products are rarely, if ever, as high
quality as the top professional products.
Some people are willing to pay for quality and have the money to do so.
Some people are willing to, but don't have the money to do so. Some people
are not willing to pay for quality. Some people feel they can attain
sufficient quality in free muds. I don't disagree with any of these
viewpoints. I just know that there are enough people in the first category
to make money off of.
>
> Is it a given that any pay mud that wants to have any noticeable profit
> needs to be GUI, GUI, GUI, all the way? Obviously it is expected that if you
> are going to pay to play, then the mud needs to be *substantially* 'better'
> than free muds - if they weren't, they wouldn't get any players (?) - so
> what would happen if mainstream free muds gradually started to become higher
> quality? If the stock muds of the future came saddled with GUIs? How would
> this affect the pay mud arena?
You make the assumption here that a GUI is automatically better. I, for
one, would disagree (at least as far as Achaea goes). In the end, stock
muds will never, as a whole, be better (and by better I mean from the
player's standpoint), because they are stock. People crave variety.
> In terms of advancing muds in general, what role do pay muds play, and what
> role do free muds play? Does a pay mud need to be a certain 'type', or cater
> to a certain group of players (cf Bartle's Suits) more than others, to be
> profitable? Can a pay mud be profitable without relying on combat-related
> player conflict? (That seems to be mainly what UO is about, maybe its just
> the misrepresentations of the media?)
I don't think a pay mud has to be a certain type. Gemstone III, for
instance, is VERY different from Achaea. It relies, from what I can tell,
mainly on player vs. mobile conflict, whereas Achaea is player vs. player
conflict (not just combat). Both of us are profitable (they more so than
us, I'm sure, given that we do not even approach a glimmer of 4000 players
online at once). They achieve profit through vast numbers. We achieve
profit through high margins.
>
> Sidenote: I tried Avalon a few years ago. Text-only (even when you used the
> custom-written client!), and looked and feeled not dissimilar to any old LP.
> What gives? WHY would people pay to use that? I remember being dumbfounded
> at the time.
Why are you so obsessed with graphics? I won't even play a mud that
requires me to use a GUI, as I can't stand them for muds. I did play
Avalon, for several years, and spent probably $3000 or so on it over time
(they charge by the hour). Also, Avalon is significantly different from an
LP (before avalon I had only played LPs). You must not have played very
long if that's the impression you got, frankly, as there is really very
little similarity.
I know many of our players have gone off to try out Merdian 59, or UO, or
Everquest and nearly all of them came back (I mean no slight on Raph or
whoever is listening here who is involved in those games) saying how much
they preferred Achaea. Clearly the games cater to a different sort of
customer. There's room for many many types of pay muds, I feel.
--matt - Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Koster, Raph
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Ross Nicoll
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Richard Bartle
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or againsteach other? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Christopher Allen
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Richard Bartle
- CVS repository for ScryMUD is online at scry.wanfear.com Ben Greear
- Mihaly's Combat Greg Munt
- Mihaly's Combat Matthew Mihaly
- Looking for UML David95037@aol.com
- Looking for UML Greg Munt
- Looking for UML David95037@aol.com
- Slogans (Game Economies) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Slogans (Game Economies) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A couple Qs, and thanks Ben Greear
- Understanding and "should-ness" Matthew Mihaly
- Understanding and "should-ness" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Personalities J C Lawrence
- realism Matthew Mihaly
- Gender and Mud Development Nathan F Yospe
- Gender and Mud Development Greg Miller
- Gender and Mud Development Katrina McClelan
- Gender and Mud Development Jon A. Lambert
- Gender and Mud Development Matthew Mihaly
- Gender and Mud Development Jon A. Lambert
- Gender and Mud Development Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender and Mud Development David Holz
- Gender and Mud Development Jon A. Lambert
- Gender and Mud Development Matthew Mihaly
- Gender and Mud Development Greg Miller
- Gender and Mud Development J C Lawrence
- Gender and Mud Development Koster, Raph
- Gender and Mud Development J C Lawrence
- Gender and Mud Development Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender and Mud Development J C Lawrence
- Gender and Mud Development Koster, Raph
- Gender and Mud Development Greg Munt
- Gender and Mud Development Greg Miller
- Gender and Mud Development Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender and Mud Development Marian Griffith
- Gender and Mud Development Matthew Mihaly
- Gender and Mud Development Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender and Mud Development Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender and Mud Development Adam Wiggins
- Gender and Mud Development Travis S. Casey
- Gender and Mud Development Marian Griffith
- Newbies (was Text Parsing) John Hopson
- Newbies (was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Average play time? Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Average play time? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Average play time? Koster, Raph
- {OT} Gender and Mud Development Wendy Winkler
- AOL lawsuit (was text parsing) Koster, Raph
- Sexual archetypes claw@kanga.nu
- Systems and concepts Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Katrina McClelan
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Koster, Raph
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Greg Miller
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) J C Lawrence
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Jon A. Lambert
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Kristen Koster
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Greg Miller
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Kristen Koster
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Jon A. Lambert
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Kristen Koster
- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Marian Griffith
- Tactical Combat and Traps (was the gender thread) Katrina McClelan
- Game construction and a big mistake Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game construction and a big mistake Marc Bowden
- Game construction and a big mistake Greg Miller
- Game construction and a big mistake Matthew Mihaly
- Game construction and a big mistake Willowreed@aol.com
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Koster, Raph
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) claw@kanga.nu
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Marc Bowden
- Client-Server vs. Peer-to-Peer -- Implementing DIS on the Internet claw@kanga.nu
- Goals and directions (was the gender thing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #93 - 27 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #93 - 27 msgs Greg Miller
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #93 - 27 msgs Koster, Raph
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #93 - 27 msgs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender and Mud Development (drifting off topic again) S. Patrick Gallaty
- Laws of Online World Design (was: realism) Koster, Raph
- Game construction and a big mistake Koster, Raph
- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed Adam Wiggins
- memory and speed J C Lawrence
- memory and speed J C Lawrence
- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed Adam Wiggins
- memory and speed Chris Gray
- memory and speed Miroslav Silovic
- memory and speed Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- memory and speed Mark Gritter
- memory and speed Ben Greear
- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed S. Patrick Gallaty
- memory and speed Adam Wiggins
- memory and speed Brad Leach
- memory and speed Petri Virkkula
- Virtual worlds based on real world history Greg Munt
- Stockmarkets... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Games within Games Jesse Farinacci
- ADMIN: Posting authority J C Lawrence
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- thoughts on game economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- thoughts on game economies Travis Casey
- thoughts on game economies Koster, Raph
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- thoughts on game economies Koster, Raph
- thoughts on game economies Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- thoughts on game economies Jo Dillon
- thoughts on game economies Greg Miller
- thoughts on game economies Matthew Mihaly
- thoughts on game economies Greg Miller
- thoughts on game economies Matthew Mihaly
- thoughts on game economies Jeremy Music "Sterling"
- thoughts on game economies Robert Brady
- thoughts on game economies Ling
- thoughts on game economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- thoughts on game economies Alex Oren
- thoughts on game economies Albert
- thoughts on game economies Adam Wiggins
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed Shawn Halpenny
- Game economics Matthew Mihaly
- Game economics Nathan F Yospe
- Playing the monsters David95037@aol.com
- Playing the monsters Katrina McClelan
- Playing the monsters Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- How to debug a method taking a variable list of arguments? Ben Greear
- Twisted Reality claw@kanga.nu
- ADMIN: Searching on MUD-Dev archives claw@kanga.nu
- Object Obsolescence [ WAS: thoughts on game economies ] Shawn Halpenny
- SAR Adam Wiggins
- speed problems update Matthew Mihaly
- speed problems update Quzah [softhome]
- ADMIN: NoMail Subscriptions -- please reconfigure J C Lawrence
- Fwd: Books on Compilers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- UM2 Greg Munt
- 3D Anarchy Adam Wiggins
- Properties of computer languages Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Properties of computer languages Jon Leonard
- Properties of computer languages Mark Gritter
- Properties of computer languages Cynbe ru Taren
- Properties of computer languages Travis S. Casey
- Properties of computer languages David95037@aol.com
- Properties of computer languages Travis S. Casey
- Properties of computer languages Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Properties of computer languages Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Properties of computer languages Joey Hess
- Properties of computer languages Chris Gray
- Properties of computer languages David95037@aol.com
- Properties of computer languages Adam Wiggins
- Properties of computer languages Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Properties of computer languages Mik Clarke
- Different approaches? Dani Dumitrescu
- Different approaches? Koster, Raph
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. PartyG2816@aol.com
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. Marc Hernandez
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. Jim Clark
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. PartyG2816@aol.com
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. PartyG2816@aol.com
- Game Design [Simulation] Justin Lockshaw
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #105 - 12 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #105 - 12 msgs Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #105 - 12 msgs Chris Gray
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #105 - 12 msgs Mik Clarke
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #105 - 12 msgs Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- A little off topic - anyone receiving multiple copies of list mail? Charles Hughes
- Role playing and Multiple Goals John Bertoglio
- Critiquing Muds Marian Griffith
- Critiquing Muds Koster, Raph
- Critiquing Muds Travis Casey
- Critiquing Muds Marian Griffith
- Critiquing Muds Travis Casey
- Critiquing Muds Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Critiquing Muds Marian Griffith
- Critiquing Muds Jon A. Lambert
- Critiquing Muds Koster, Raph
- Critiquing Muds Matthew Mihaly
- Critiquing Muds Koster, Raph
- Critiquing Muds Damion Schubert
- Critiquing Muds Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Critiquing Muds Michael Willey
- Critiquing Muds Jon A. Lambert
- MUD-Dev: An apology J C Lawrence