June 1999
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Mark Gritter
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis S. Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis S. Casey
On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Matthew Mihaly wrote:
> At 08:42 PM 6/2/99 -0400, Travis wrote:
> >That is the difference between *prescriptive* and *descriptive*
> >grammar. A prescriptive grammar, which is the kind of grammar you're
> >exposed to in grade school, is some group's idea of the way the
> >language *should* be spoken. A *descriptive* grammar, which is what
> >linguists work with, is a description of the way the language *is*
> >spoken.
>
> Descriptive grammar seems, to my uneducated self, to be impossible to
> define precisely and thus absolutely useless in terms of a mud parser. If
> grammar is the way language is spoken, then any set of words that is meant
> to express an idea can be considered English. If descriptive grammar is
> what is spoken, then by speaking it, it becomes proper grammar. I realize
> this is a bit silly, but how many people does it take to become correct
> grammar?
That's an open question. However, it's the same sort of question that's
faced in lots of other situations in the real world. For example, what's
a species? Are wolves and dogs the same species, since they can
interbreed? How do you define species for animals that you can't observe
the breeding of -- e.g., dinosaurs?
Let's say you were researching TV shows. How do you go about deciding
what defines a comedy versus a drama? One way would be to find "experts"
and ask them. Another would be to take a randomly selected group of
people, show them the shows, and ask them whether each show is a comedy or
drama. Take the shows that they show the most agreement on, and then
start analyzing those to determine what's different about them and what
they have in common.
The same thing applies to languages. Let's say that you find a previously
undiscovered tribe in the Amazon rain forest, and you want to produce a
grammar and vocabulary for their language, so that other people can learn
it before coming to deal with them.
There aren't any authorities you can consult about their language -- they
don't have formal schooling, and they don't have a written language, so no
one's ever tried to codify their language before. What do you do? (We're
assuming that you can speak with them -- either you've stayed there a
while and started to learn their language, or you've found an
interpreter.)
The logical thing to do is the same sort of thing that we described above
for TV shows: take samples of their language, e.g., by recording them in
casual conversation, and then take a group of them, play back those
samples for them, and ask if they're properly-formed. If they're not, ask
what's wrong with them.
(People can tell if a sentence is "properly formed" without having a
formal grammar. For example, any native English speaker will tell you
that something's wrong with the "sentence" "Go Joe market did to." Or,
they can tell you that "I mean -- that is -- I'm trying to say -- oh, the
heck with it" isn't a proper sentence.)
It'll take time, but you will be able to figure out their language. What
you get out of it will be a descriptive grammar -- you're describing how
their language *is*, rather than how someone says it *should be*.
Now, do the same thing with speakers of English. Since English is spoken
over a far wider area, you'll find a lot more variation -- but you will
find some things that are common in all variations of English, like the
basic SVO order for statements.
> I don't have a great understanding of programming, but it seems to me that
> the only way to code a parser is to make it use an objectively defined set
> of rules. Whether those rules come from Oxford or your imagination, you are
> still defining your in-game grammar just as rigidly. I don't mean this in a
> deragatory way. I just don't see any other way to do it.
I don't either. However, you can objectively define a set of rules in a
pragmatic way -- that is, find a set of rules that fits what's actually
being said. That set of rules is a descriptive grammar.
> It also occurs to me that the examples you provided were all
> speech-oriented. Speech and text are two different things, and if I picked
> up a history book that was written the way people speak, I'd throw it into
> the garbage. I might not laugh at someone who said something to me like
> "That dog ain't got no fleas", but I certainly wouldn't take that person
> seriously. Likewise, I try to make the output in my game use proper grammar
> (to me, that means Oxford grammar). As far as input goes, I'm happy forcing
> them into a rigid structure. I guess while a parser that can accomodate
> constantly changing dialects would be interesting, I don't see the point in
> terms of MUD development.
*Sigh*. I never said anything about it being useful for mud
development... I was just pointing out that Caliban's statement that
people can't speak their own languages "correctly" was BS.
The English grammars used in schools are meant to teach people to use a
certain form of English that people have decided is "better" than other
forms. It has as much to do with what English really is as the standards
for judging dogs at dog shows have to do with what a dog is.
At any rate, this is getting far off-topic. Suffice it to say that I
agree with you that a mud parser needs to be based on an objective set of
rules. I also agree that, if you're trying to use English-like input,
it's best to use Standard English as your model -- even if it's not
everyone's native dialect, anyone who's logging into a mud has probably
been exposed to it.
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@io.com>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis S. Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jp Calderone
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Travis Casey
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Cynbe ru Taren
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ben Greear
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Munt
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Darren Henderson
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Munt
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Miroslav Silovic
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Alex Oren
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Darren Henderson
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) David Bennett
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Darren Henderson
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ross Nicoll
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ross Nicoll
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Jon A. Lambert
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Greg Miller
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Koster, Raph
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Ben Greear
- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing) Chris Gray
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- IndustrialMUD Greg Miller
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- Combat (very long) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Combat (very long) Matthew Mihaly
- Combat (very long) Marian Griffith
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- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Chris Gray
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Matthew Mihaly
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Chris Gray
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- What about goal oriented interfaces? (was Text Parsing) Adam Wiggins
- thoughts Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
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- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Adam Wiggins
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Greg Miller
- Game Economies Ross Nicoll
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Ross Nicoll
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Timothy O'Neill Dang
- Game Economies Jo Dillon
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Greg Munt
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Jon A. Lambert
- Game Economies Shawn Halpenny
- Game Economies Brandon J. Rickman
- Game Economies Jon A. Lambert
- Game Economies Shane King
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Nathan F Yospe
- Game Economies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
- Game Economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Game Economies Koster, Raph
- Game Economies Brandon J. Rickman
- Game Economies Marian Griffith
- Game Economies Katrina McClelan
- Game Economies Adam Wiggins
- Game Economies Katrina McClelan
- Game Economies Albert
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- Game Economies Laurel Fan
- Game Economies Albert
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- Game Economies J C Lawrence
- Game Economies Matthew Mihaly
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- Game Economies Ling
- Game Economies Mik Clarke
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- Parsing Text Output Chris Gray
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- Interface/Custom Clients Greg Miller
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- Languages (slightly offtopic, was Text Parsing)y Caliban Tiresias Darklock
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- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Matthew Mihaly
- Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other? Koster, Raph
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- Mihaly's Combat Matthew Mihaly
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- realism Matthew Mihaly
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- Gender and Mud Development Greg Miller
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- Gender and Mud Development Matthew Mihaly
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- Gender and Mud Development Matthew Mihaly
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- Gender and Mud Development J C Lawrence
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- Gender and Mud Development J C Lawrence
- Gender and Mud Development Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender and Mud Development J C Lawrence
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- Average play time? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Average play time? Koster, Raph
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- AOL lawsuit (was text parsing) Koster, Raph
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- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) J C Lawrence
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- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Kristen Koster
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- Games within Games [Was: Gender and Mud Development] Kristen Koster
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- Game construction and a big mistake Greg Miller
- Game construction and a big mistake Matthew Mihaly
- Game construction and a big mistake Willowreed@aol.com
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- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) Koster, Raph
- Gender and Mud Development (back on topic, some) claw@kanga.nu
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- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #93 - 27 msgs Greg Miller
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #93 - 27 msgs Koster, Raph
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #93 - 27 msgs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
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- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed Adam Wiggins
- memory and speed J C Lawrence
- memory and speed J C Lawrence
- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed Adam Wiggins
- memory and speed Chris Gray
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- memory and speed Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- memory and speed Mark Gritter
- memory and speed Ben Greear
- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed S. Patrick Gallaty
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- Stockmarkets... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Games within Games Jesse Farinacci
- ADMIN: Posting authority J C Lawrence
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- thoughts on game economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- thoughts on game economies Travis Casey
- thoughts on game economies Koster, Raph
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- thoughts on game economies Koster, Raph
- thoughts on game economies Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- thoughts on game economies Jo Dillon
- thoughts on game economies Greg Miller
- thoughts on game economies Matthew Mihaly
- thoughts on game economies Greg Miller
- thoughts on game economies Matthew Mihaly
- thoughts on game economies Jeremy Music "Sterling"
- thoughts on game economies Robert Brady
- thoughts on game economies Ling
- thoughts on game economies Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- thoughts on game economies Alex Oren
- thoughts on game economies Albert
- thoughts on game economies Adam Wiggins
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- thoughts on game economies Travis S. Casey
- memory and speed Matthew Mihaly
- memory and speed Shawn Halpenny
- Game economics Matthew Mihaly
- Game economics Nathan F Yospe
- Playing the monsters David95037@aol.com
- Playing the monsters Katrina McClelan
- Playing the monsters Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- How to debug a method taking a variable list of arguments? Ben Greear
- Twisted Reality claw@kanga.nu
- ADMIN: Searching on MUD-Dev archives claw@kanga.nu
- Object Obsolescence [ WAS: thoughts on game economies ] Shawn Halpenny
- SAR Adam Wiggins
- speed problems update Matthew Mihaly
- speed problems update Quzah [softhome]
- ADMIN: NoMail Subscriptions -- please reconfigure J C Lawrence
- Fwd: Books on Compilers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
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- Properties of computer languages Jon Leonard
- Properties of computer languages Mark Gritter
- Properties of computer languages Cynbe ru Taren
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- Properties of computer languages David95037@aol.com
- Properties of computer languages Travis S. Casey
- Properties of computer languages Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
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- Different approaches? Koster, Raph
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. PartyG2816@aol.com
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. Marc Hernandez
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. Jim Clark
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. PartyG2816@aol.com
- i got's a question for yall on the best way to do something.. PartyG2816@aol.com
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- A little off topic - anyone receiving multiple copies of list mail? Charles Hughes
- Role playing and Multiple Goals John Bertoglio
- Critiquing Muds Marian Griffith
- Critiquing Muds Koster, Raph
- Critiquing Muds Travis Casey
- Critiquing Muds Marian Griffith
- Critiquing Muds Travis Casey
- Critiquing Muds Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Critiquing Muds Marian Griffith
- Critiquing Muds Jon A. Lambert
- Critiquing Muds Koster, Raph
- Critiquing Muds Matthew Mihaly
- Critiquing Muds Koster, Raph
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