March 1999
- Storytelling vs simulation, Koster, Raph
Concatenating two replies into one post here....
My question was:
> > "Koster, Raph" wrote:
> > > Do any MUSHes actually have storytelling capabilities? What exactly IS
> > > storytelling capability in a mud? Can you define a feature set?
> From: Mik Clarke [mailto:mikclrk@ibm.net]
> > There are a few people around trying to evolve combat based
> > muds into role playing muds. While some of it is enhancing the social
> > aspects a lot of it is trying to add some story telling capabilities.
> Storytelling (in muds, Miks view) is related to scenarios, quests and
> plots.
Mik said both of the above. To my mind, this is a fairly reductionist view
of the issue. The fact is that adding quests to a combat-oriented game
doesn't necessarily constitute storytelling. I say this as someone who has
done plenty of exactly that. Quests per se tend to devolve into mere
"amusement park rides" regardless of how narratively powerful they may be.
This is directly related to the fact that they are static.
Mik also stated
> The system I'm looking at should be multi-paths, basically a network of
> 'story events', with the sequence of events you have taken determining
> what further events are available and how those events get played out.
This begs the question of whether this forms a narrative (defined as, a plot
structure imposed upon the participant) or whether it really is merely an
experience, with narrative structure imposed on the events retroactively by
the player. In other words, are you defining a branching plot structure in
advance, or is the following example
> For instance, if you met the wizards daughter and talked to her and she
> gave you the map to the wizards tower, he is likely to react differently
> when you ask for his help as to how he would react if you had killed his
> daughter and taken the map to his tower from her corpse.
actually an example of good simulation, rather than storytelling? In which
case the wizard reacts that way because of an assessment of numerous
variables, many of which might be randomly generated (his attitude towards
his daughter, his liking of short hairy adventurers, etc). In which case we
have a generalized simulation system, not a narrative structure.
> From: Dan Root [mailto:dar@thekeep.org]
> Speaking as someone who has run several MUSHes in the past,
> I'll take a stab at defining a more technically oriented feature set.
> For the most part the easiest way to describe a MUSH is to
> take an original TinyMUD and add a user-accessable programming. [snip]
> There is also a fairly large set of 'trigger' attributes that the server
> may call when certain actions are performed. [snip]
> Additionally, there is a moderately rich set of semantics for
> being able to create automated objects which interact with their
> environment. Generally all users can use the programming language to
> create personal objects and rooms. [snip]
> There isn't much 'hardcode' that enforces storytelling, though there are a
> fair number of available softcode packages that make very aspects of doing
> online role-playing easier.
OK, while I agree with everything you said above, I don't see how in any way
they add up to storytelling. They are useful tools for a number of things,
both creation of environments and narratives.
A few truisms I'd toss at this issue right here:
- if you've got a static structure of ANY sort, it will in one way or
another fail over the long term in your virtual environment.
- you cannot add new static structures at the pace that players will demand
them.
- most tools people tend to add for "storytelling" are static structures:
quests, fillips in the environment, etc.
I think a fruitful course of investigation would be to ascertain what *sort*
of storytelling it is that people really crave in a mud. I think that Mik's
statement
> It should also be possible for the world, or at least parts of it, to
> react to your progress through the story.
is key. People want their stories to have significance, and they want to
have an impact in the world. They wish to leave their mark. One can easily
make the leap of logic to an examination of why the two "classic" methods of
adding storytelling into a mud fail:
- static narratives aren't significant because they repeat. Eg, they are
essentially periodic events.
- randomly generated encounters aren't significant because they are too
small in scope.
This right here could be the key issue behind "storytelling vs
simulation"--neither one, as currently used, tends to result in narratives
that are sufficiently large in scope.
A third tactic, of course, is giving tools to the players, as Dan cites
MUSHes do. Yet my observation is that while tools for players are a very
good thing & a very powerful thing, few players actually build narratives
out of them. They build toys, they build environment. They usually don't
build stories. (And yes, better environment contributes to their building
post facto stories out of their memories, but I'm speaking of previously
determined structure here).
Lastly, the playerbase is highly resistant to change. This means that in
general, the parameters for both a static narrative construct OR a
simulation tend to be narrowly defined. We can't generally do things like
cause continents to sink, cities to die of the plague, etc etc, because it
scares the bejeezus out of the newbies, horrifies the players who lose their
standing or accumulated possessions, and disturbs those whose sense of
familiarity with the environment is the biggest reason why they still play.
To my mind, the only thing that has enough scope to really generate mud-wide
stories, then, is player social constructs. And usually narrative structure
will be imposed after the fact.
Thus, it could be argued that the absolute best tactics for mud storytelling
are
- encourage players (through the provision of tools for this purpose) to
form groups with conflicting goals (philosophical, territorial, etc) of
*some* sort that are a) significant in impact b) achievable yet c) not
overly destructive of the environment. This is a large design issue which is
in many ways frankly contradictory to basic design principles in many mud
code bases today.
- assiduously report the "latest news" in conflicts, cast as story and
narrative, with context, embellishment where necessary, and if need be,
presented in such a manner as to encourage ongoing conflict, picking of
sides, etc.
I don't know of any gaming muds that expressly attempt this in the manner I
describe. Dan, or others, is this the usual method of operation for
"storytelling" MUSHes?
-Raph - Storytelling vs simulation, Eli Stevens {KiZurich}
- Storytelling vs simulation, Mik Clarke
- Storytelling vs simulation, J C Lawrence
- Storytelling vs simulation, Matthew Mihaly
- Storytelling vs simulation, J C Lawrence
- Storytelling vs simulation, Matthew Mihaly
- Storytelling vs simulation, Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- OT: MUSH semantics (was: Influential muds) T. Alexander Popiel
- Storytelling and Gods (fairly long) Matthew Mihaly
- Storytelling and Gods (fairly long) Koster, Raph
- Storytelling and Gods (fairly long) Matthew Mihaly
- Generic event handling Adam Wiggins
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Ben Greear
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Matthew D. Fuller
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Chris Gray
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Chris Gray
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Nathan F Yospe
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Jason Spangler
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Oliver Jowett
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Oliver Jowett
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Chris Gray
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Chris Gray
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Petri Virkkula
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Chris Gray
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Petri Virkkula
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. J C Lawrence
- How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections, and some philosophy. Petri Virkkula
- ADMIN: Kanga.Nu outage and other news -- please read J C Lawrence
- Elder Games Martin C Sweitzer
- Elder Games Adam Wiggins
- Elder Games Koster, Raph
- Elder Games Matthew Mihaly
- Elder Games Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Elder Games Martin C Sweitzer
- Elder Games Matthew Mihaly
- Elder Games Kylotan
- Elder Games Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Elder Games Kylotan
- Elder Games Koster, Raph
- Elder Games B. Scott Boding
- Elder Games Wes Connell
- Elder Games Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Elder Games Matthew D. Fuller
- Elder Games B. Scott Boding
- Elder Games Michael Hohensee
- Elder Games Matthew Mihaly
- Elder Games Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Elder Games Chris Gray
- Elder Games Chris Gray
- Elder Games J C Lawrence
- Elder Games Nathan F Yospe
- Elder Games J C Lawrence
- Multiple clients (was How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections) Matthew D. Fuller
- Multiple clients (was How to support 1000+ simultaneous connections) Chris Gray
- Naming and Directories? Mark Gritter
- Naming and Directories? Matthew D. Fuller
- Naming and Directories? Adam Wiggins
- Naming and Directories? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Naming and Directories? Chris Gray
- Naming and Directories? Mark Gritter
- Naming and Directories? Mik Clarke
- Naming and Directories? Mark Gritter
- Naming and Directories? Nathan F Yospe
- Naming and Directories? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Naming and Directories? Nathan F Yospe
- Naming and Directories? Mik Clarke
- Naming and Directories? Mark Gritter
- Naming and Directories? Jon A. Lambert
- Naming and Directories? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Naming and Directories? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Naming and Directories? Chris Gray
- Naming and Directories? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Naming and Directories? Ben Greear
- Naming and Directories? Mik Clarke
- Naming and Directories? Chris Gray
- Naming and Directories? Chris Gray
- Naming and Directories? Chris Gray
- Naming and Directories? Jo Dillon
- Naming and Directories? J C Lawrence
- Naming and Directories? Mark Gritter
- Naming and Directories? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Naming and Directories? Mark Gritter
- Naming and Directories? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Naming and Directories? Chris Gray
- Naming and Directories? J C Lawrence
- Naming and Directories? Jo Dillon
- Naming and Directories? Jay Carlson
- Naming and Directories? Jon A. Lambert
- Naming and Directories? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Naming and Directories? J C Lawrence
- Naming and Directories? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Balancing a Mud Martin C Sweitzer
- Balancing a Mud Neerenberg, AaronX
- Balancing a Mud Mik Clarke
- Balancing a Mud Martin C Sweitzer
- Multiple clients (was How to support 1000+ simultaneous connec Marc Bowden
- ADMIN: Signature length J C Lawrence
- distributed, _untrusted_ servers Oliver Jowett
- OT ADMIN: Web links to MUD-Dev J C Lawrence
- (fwd) MUD Economies J C Lawrence
- (fwd) MUD Economies J C Lawrence
- (fwd) MUD Economies J C Lawrence
- (fwd) MUD Economies J C Lawrence
- Potential New Laws Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Mud Economies (A simple idea) Wes Connell
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) B. Scott Boding
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Mik Clarke
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Koster, Raph
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Nicholas Lee
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Koster, Raph
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) B. Scott Boding
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Nicholas Lee
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Martin Keegan
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Nicholas Lee
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Wes Connell
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Matthew Mihaly
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Nathan F Yospe
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Matthew Mihaly
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Nathan F Yospe
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Nathan F Yospe
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Brandon A Downey
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Adam Wiggins
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Martin C Sweitzer
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Quzah [softhome]
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Richard Woolcock
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Chris Gray
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) J C Lawrence
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Christopher Allen
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Matthew Mihaly
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) Chris Gray
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) J C Lawrence
- Mass Creation OLC Functions (idea from Elder Games) J C Lawrence
- On the topic of Mud AI Leif Hardison
- On the topic of Mud AI Nicholas Lee
- On the topic of Mud AI Andrew Norman
- Unicode, ascii and names Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Variable-sized structures in C (was: Naming and Directories) T. Alexander Popiel
- Variable-sized structures in C (was: Naming and Directories) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Renaming objects. John Hopson
- Renaming objects. David Bennett
- Variable-sized structures in C (was: Naming and Directories) Petri Virkkula
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Koster, Raph
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- online economy behavior (was: Self-organizing worlds) Robert Green
- online economy behavior (was: Self-organizing worlds) Matthew Mihaly
- online economy behavior (was: Self-organizing worlds) Adam Wiggins
- online economy behavior (was: Self-organizing worlds) Robert Green
- online economy behavior (was: Self-organizing worlds) Matthew Mihaly
- online economy behavior (was: Self-organizing worlds) Matthew Mihaly
- online economy behavior (was: Self-organizing worlds) Christopher Allen
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Koster, Raph
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Koster, Raph
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Chris Gray
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Self-organizing worlds (was: Elder Games) Mik Clarke
- online economy behavior (was: Self-organizing worlds) Chris Gray
- OT: just a little something... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- (fwd) implications J C Lawrence
- Downtime J C Lawrence
- Getting Started with Mud Server Stormblade
- Getting Started with Mud Server Ross Nicoll
- Getting Started with Mud Server Jim Clark
- Getting Started with Mud Server Ben Greear
- Getting Started with Mud Server Chris Gray
- Getting Started with Mud Server Jo Dillon
- Getting Started with Mud Server Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Terms Ola Fosheim Grøstad