January 1999
- From DevMud: Database module Greg Connor
- From DevMud: Database module Mik Clarke
- From DevMud: Database module Greg Connor
- From DevMud: Database module J C Lawrence
- From DevMud: Database module Greg Connor
- ADMIN: Resends and possible duplicates J C Lawrence
- Info about different skill systems Emil Eifrem
- Info about different skill systems Nathan F Yospe
- Info about different skill systems Ben Greear
- Info about different skill systems Emil Eifrem
- Info about different skill systems Ben Greear
- Info about different skill systems Emil Eifrem
- Info about different skill systems Nathan F Yospe
- Info about different skill systems Travis S. Casey
- Info about different skill systems Mik Clarke
- New features for ScryMUD (Player-run Shops) Ben Greear
- [OT Humor] Mudder's Rhapsody Jon A. Lambert
- [OT Humor] Mudder's Rhapsody Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [OT Humor] Mudder's Rhapsody The Wildman
- Guild/skill/spell relation (or "webs") Petri Virkkula
- Guild/skill/spell relation (or "webs") David Bennett
- mobile movement Matthew Mihaly
- mobile movement Adam Wiggins
- mobile movement Koster, Raph
- mobile movement Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement David Bennett
- mobile movement Kylotan
- mobile movement quzah [softhome]
- mobile movement Ling
- mobile movement J C Lawrence
- mobile movement Oliver Jowett
- mobile movement Oliver Jowett
- mobile movement Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement Richard Woolcock
- mobile movement J C Lawrence
- mobile movement Ling
- mobile movement Marc Hernandez
- mobile movement J C Lawrence
- mobile movement Ling
- mobile movement Holly Sommer
- mobile movement Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement Koster, Raph
- mobile movement Chris Gray
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu (was J C Lawrence
- [RRE]MediaMOO annual birthday symposia: 1/20 Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- [RRE]MediaMOO annual birthday symposia: 1/20 Koster, Raph
- OT: Mike Sellers needs some help load testing J C Lawrence
- Keegan's MUD Tree J C Lawrence
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Marian Griffith
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Dominic J. Eidson
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu J C Lawrence
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Marian Griffith
- GRASS GIS Web Site Elis Pomales
- Thoughts Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement (the fault of tracking) quzah [softhome]
- ADMIN Name server problems and upes J C Lawrence
- Adjective Server Christopher Allen
- Reputations, More Mazes Eli Stevens {KiZurich}
- Reputations, More Mazes J C Lawrence
- Reputations, More Mazes Eli Stevens {KiZurich}
- Mules (was something different) Marian Griffith
- Mules (was something different) J C Lawrence
- Mules (was something different) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Levels versus Skills Marian Griffith
- Levels versus Skills Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Levels versus Skills J C Lawrence
- Levels versus Skills quzah [softhome]
- Levels versus Skills Vladimir Prelovac
- Levels versus Skills quzah [softhome]
- Levels versus Skills J C Lawrence
- Levels versus Skills Petri Virkkula
- Levels versus Skills J C Lawrence
- Levels versus Skills Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- From Devmud: Database module, draft 3 Greg Connor
- Matrix Game Ling
- Graphic design doc Thinus Barnard
- Graphic design doc Chris Gray
- ADMIN: List server and Kanga.Nu host changes J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: List server and Kanga.Nu host changes Koster, Raph
- Sockets and fibers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Sockets and fibers Adam J. Thornton
- Sockets and fibers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Sockets and fibers J C Lawrence
- Sockets and fibers Jon A. Lambert
- Sockets and fibers Adam J. Thornton
- Sockets and fibers Dr. Cat
- Sockets and fibers Jo Dillon
- [DevMUD] From Devmud: Database module, draft 3 Greg Connor
- META: list "peerage" Koster, Raph
- META: list "peerage" John Bertoglio
- META: list "peerage" diablo@best.com
- META: list "peerage" Andy Cink
- META: list "peerage" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- META: list "peerage" Quzah [softhome]
- META: list "peerage" Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- META: list "peerage" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- META: list "peerage" Holly Sommer
- META: list "peerage" Travis S. Casey
- META: list "peerage" Andy Cink
- META: list "peerage" Quzah [softhome]
- META: list "peerage" Matthew D. Fuller
On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 12:36:04AM -0800, a little birdie told me that
Andy Cink remarked
> At 08:06 PM 1/20/99 -0800, Matt (diablo@best.com) wrote:
> >It's lovely to talk about improving the quality of MUDs generally, but the
> >problem isn't the concepts used, it is the people running them, and as
> >long as any idiot can just download a code base and slap up a
> >cookie-cutter mud, that problem isn't going to go away. The barrier to
> >entry is just too low.
>
> Ultimately, people have to learn somehow. I don't think there is a huge
> amount of published material on mud design. (If there was, most likely
> I'd have some of it) Therefore, the only way to learn how to design a
> game (or even build a world, or administrate, etc) is to actually put
> up a working mud. Therefore, I consider it a net positive that people can
> easily get code and set up a mud. This makes it easier for people to enter,
> and ultimately expands the pool of available talent, as well as increases
> innovation. (More example code to look at, more people to answer questions,
> write FAQs, etc, etc)
The problem I see with this is a mentality problem. It's actually the
same problem I see in the PC market with Windows (don't get me started on
that rant). The problem is, that when you don't HAVE to put out effort
to get started (or have to put out so little as to be essentially none),
there's that much less incentive to learn more. That's about the best
way I can put it without going on for pages. There's nothing wrong with
a low barrier to entry per se. The problem is with people who take that
as an invitation to STAY at that low level and not try to go higher.
When you have that situation, there's positives and negatives. One of
the positives is that over time, you get a much larger group of
knowledgeable people around, and an even larger group of
semi-knowledgeable people. You have a larger group of 'test cases'.
But on the flip side, you have a lower S:N ratio. A fair number of the
people who put out the effort to go beyond the basics are the people who
would do it even if there weren't that 'low side' to come in on
initially, whereas none of those who won't put out the effort (by
definition, really) would have. You also get a lot more disillusioned
player-types, who blanketly state 'all muds are crap', and that
disrespect fans out into the community at large, so today to say 'I admin
a mud' in a lot of computing circles is kinda like saying 'I used to drink
non-alcoholic beer' at an AA meeting; most people's estimation of you
becomes 'well, I guess you're kinda in the same boat as me, but keep on
your side of it'. You perhaps see that less in sociological circles just
because of the nature of the field.
So it's a pretty mixed bag. You end up with more press, but also more
bad press; more people, but also more bad people. Is it worth it?
Another open question...
> I do however think that a major problem is that talent is simply spread too
> thin out there. While it's all fine if someone wants to learn how to run a
...
> I think the best thing that could happen to the mud "universe" is if less
> people started opening their own muds, and more people worked together to
> generate a quality mud. Perhaps some sort of service could be designed to
> match people to projects, such that people with similar aims could work
> together, rather than each independently building a similar mud. I think
> a problem with this is that people have a "virtual god" complex and don't
> want to share the limelight with anyone else.
A problem with this approach is that there's fairly few people who have
similar enough aims to do that. Especially on the coding side, if you're
coding in a group, you're going to hit massive snags from even the
smallest differences of opinion, which eventually is going to tick
somebody off enough that they leave and create their ideas alone
elsewhere. I remember reading somewhere (maybe here) the 'One coder per
MUD' rule, which is, like any blanket rule, not strictly true, but
obviously applies to a wide range of situations.
> >Speaking only for myself, I don't find anyone intimidating. The main
> >reason, I think, is that while there are some detectable attempts by
> >people to big themselves up with jargon, I don't see much of it, and the
> >impression I get from most people who post here is that they're not about
> >puffing up their egos at the expense of others on the list.
>
> I feel as intimidated as hell. Every time I post I wonder if
> everyone thinks I'm a yutz or not. But I post anyways, because
> if I post, hopefully some of the other new people will too,
> and that can only help the list grow.
Well, I've been lurking here for something like 3 or 4 months, this is
the first time (well, if you're seeing this it is ;) I've come out of the
shadows. A lot of the discussions I didn't really personally care about,
or I hadn't thought about and felt I had to catch up before I could
contribute, or what I had in mind had already been said, or I was too
busy IRL while the thread was alive to contribute what I had.
But I think the BIGGEST barrier that I found myself up against was the
nature of being allowed to post. The list information (rules, FAQ,
whatever) says something along the lines of, 'When asking for posting
permission, it is suggested that you attach your intended post'. My
reading of that is that it isn't really as much a 'suggestion' as The Way
To Do It. So now, not only did I have to (as with EVERY post anywhere)
have something constructive to contribute, and not only did I have to get
permission, but I had to have a post good enough to submit to GET the
permission. That's pretty daunting, at least to me.
(nb: That's not a reproach, and I don't have a better solution; in fact,
I think it works well. Just a little intimidating)
---
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
| Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd |
* fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net *
| UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD |
* FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting *
| "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, |
* is because I haven't figured out how to light the *
| middle yet" |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
----- End forwarded message ----- - META: list "peerage" Laurel Fan
- META: list "peerage" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- META: list "peerage" David Bennett
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- META: list "peerage" Brandon A Downey
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- Mugu Chris Gray
- META: List peerage and behaviour J C Lawrence
- META: list "peerage" Chris Gray
- ADMIN: We're working again. J C Lawrence
- Java I/O and threads. Elis Pomales
- Java I/O and threads. Jo Dillon
- Java I/O and threads. cynbe@muq.org
- Java I/O and threads. Jo Dillon
- Java I/O and threads. Elis Pomales
- Reset Death Wes Connell
- Reset Death Quzah [softhome]
- Reset Death Wes Connell
- Reset Death Mik Clarke
- Reset Death Andrew C.M. McClintock
- Reset Death Mik Clarke
- PvP and mob capacities (was "List Peerage") Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- combat diablo@best.com
- META: list "peerage" Darrin Hyrup
- META: list "peerage" J C Lawrence
- Telmaron and Mud servers was: META: list "peerage" Elis Pomales
- META: list "peerage" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
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- Who is? (was about level vs skills) Marian Griffith
- Who is? (was about level vs skills) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- exploration points diablo@best.com
- [MUD-Dev] Juha Lindfors
- Stock Mud Demographics ##Make Nylander
- ADMIN: Off-topic and the ever present reminders on quoting. J C Lawrence
- Mud reviewing Andy Cink
- Mud reviewing Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing Andru Luvisi
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing J C Lawrence
- Mud reviewing Dan Shiovitz
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing Richard Woolcock
- Mud reviewing David Bennett
- Mud reviewing Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD Admin skills Hal Black
- Subdue Holly Sommer
- processors diablo@best.com
- processors John Bertoglio
- processors Wes Connell
- processors Laurel Fan
- processors Mik Clarke
- processors J C Lawrence
- processors diablo@best.com
- processors Quzah [softhome]
- processors Mik Clarke
- processors J C Lawrence
- processors Marc Hernandez
- processors Adam Wiggins
- processors Greg Underwood
- processors Adam Wiggins
- processors Chris Gray
- processors gunderwood@donet.com
- processors Jon A. Lambert
- processors Greg Underwood
- processors Petri Virkkula
- quests involving players diablo@best.com
- quests involving players Darren Henderson
- quests involving players Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- quests involving players Richard Woolcock