January 1999
- From DevMud: Database module Greg Connor
- From DevMud: Database module Mik Clarke
- From DevMud: Database module Greg Connor
- From DevMud: Database module J C Lawrence
- From DevMud: Database module Greg Connor
- ADMIN: Resends and possible duplicates J C Lawrence
- Info about different skill systems Emil Eifrem
- Info about different skill systems Nathan F Yospe
- Info about different skill systems Ben Greear
- Info about different skill systems Emil Eifrem
- Info about different skill systems Ben Greear
- Info about different skill systems Emil Eifrem
- Info about different skill systems Nathan F Yospe
- Info about different skill systems Travis S. Casey
- Info about different skill systems Mik Clarke
- New features for ScryMUD (Player-run Shops) Ben Greear
- [OT Humor] Mudder's Rhapsody Jon A. Lambert
- [OT Humor] Mudder's Rhapsody Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [OT Humor] Mudder's Rhapsody The Wildman
- Guild/skill/spell relation (or "webs") Petri Virkkula
- Guild/skill/spell relation (or "webs") David Bennett
- mobile movement Matthew Mihaly
- mobile movement Adam Wiggins
- mobile movement Koster, Raph
- mobile movement Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement David Bennett
- mobile movement Kylotan
- mobile movement quzah [softhome]
- mobile movement Ling
- mobile movement J C Lawrence
- mobile movement Oliver Jowett
- mobile movement Oliver Jowett
- mobile movement Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement Richard Woolcock
- mobile movement J C Lawrence
- mobile movement Ling
- mobile movement Marc Hernandez
- mobile movement J C Lawrence
- mobile movement Ling
- mobile movement Holly Sommer
- mobile movement Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement Koster, Raph
- mobile movement Chris Gray
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu (was J C Lawrence
- [RRE]MediaMOO annual birthday symposia: 1/20 Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- [RRE]MediaMOO annual birthday symposia: 1/20 Koster, Raph
- OT: Mike Sellers needs some help load testing J C Lawrence
- Keegan's MUD Tree J C Lawrence
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Marian Griffith
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Dominic J. Eidson
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu J C Lawrence
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Marian Griffith
- GRASS GIS Web Site Elis Pomales
- Thoughts Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement (the fault of tracking) quzah [softhome]
- ADMIN Name server problems and upes J C Lawrence
- Adjective Server Christopher Allen
- Reputations, More Mazes Eli Stevens {KiZurich}
- Reputations, More Mazes J C Lawrence
- Reputations, More Mazes Eli Stevens {KiZurich}
- Mules (was something different) Marian Griffith
- Mules (was something different) J C Lawrence
- Mules (was something different) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Levels versus Skills Marian Griffith
On Fri 15 Jan, J C Lawrence wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:32:35 -0600
> Koster, Raph<rkoster@origin.ea.com> wrote:
> >> From: Marian Griffith
> Without atrophy (deflation), there is only endless inflation (the
> descreasing value of the advancement). Once someone is level 10,
> what is the value left in levels 1 thru 9?
Which leaves us with the question of the value of levels if it is
a measure of ability. On any game there is a limit to ability and
if that is how levels are measured, there is a necessary limit to
levels as well. Things get worse if the amount of ability gained
is so extreme as on most muds (though players would hate to see
it reduced to minor differences).
> There are two approaches:
> 1) Keep growing the game so that there is always room for the
> inflationary sprial to grow into. This means that the requirements
> for the top levels of advancement must recede (become more
> difficult) for the base player base at the same rate that the base
> player base approaches them.
If I understand what you are saying then I think this is *most*
unkind to new players.
> 2) Something must devalue accumulated value (levels etc) such that
> players ever fall down the ladder and thus retain something to
> climb.
Would it not be possible to shift players individually up and
down the ladder, rather than all players at the same time, or
is that what you are saying?
Any way, I think it would be a good thing if levels and power
are not the same thing on a mud. For one thing it allows for
other goals than acquiring experience points.
> Comments on zero-sum games etc are apt and welcome.
> The problem with both of course is that they are demoralising.
> There is no winning, you can only stand still or fall behind. We
> can cover up this flaw in #1 by repainting it as "re-inventing" or
> other cute terms. The principle remains the same however, the game
> is regeared to put everybody back at ground zero -- just without
> making them feel that they've lost in the process (concentrate on
> the new race/game instead of what is lost).
Do not most muds already do just this every time they add new
features, races, classes, areas? They up the levels in some
way by increasing the power level acheivable to players.
> The problem from a game design viewpoint is that #2 is horribly
> expensive. It means that you can't just put a game on maintenance,
> but you have to actually re-write and re-design and re-do the whole
> damn thing with fair frequency,
I am fairly sure I do not understand at all why this must be so.
> What's the key problem? The very concept of the advancement scale.
> It just doesn't work over the long term. It is an evolutionary dead
> end. Why? Because you can't maintain the process that drives the
> advancement scale. No matter how hard you try to make and keep the
> game open ended (which is really what I am talking about), sooner or
> later, and likely far sooner than later, burnout beckons. You
> *have* to divert to softer more organic realms where
> non-deterministic development is more important than direct
> comparison and ranking and linear genetalia measuring is no longer
> your stock in trade.
> Even then atrophy isn't really a solution. All it really does is
> make the scale longer. Now, instead of being able to climb from 1
> to 100 in simple fashion, you're now walking uphill against
> "atrophy".
True, though if you manage to separate the power level from the
player level it should be more manageable I think. Instead of
concentrating on ways to make characters weaker you can concen-
trate on handling the more socially oriented aspect of player
levels.
> Expressive fertility seems like the real key here. Have a look at
> the Walled City in Gibson's Idoru. Look at the general handling of
> virtual reality in the same book. There's a *LOT* of careful,
> detailed, highly imaginative and really really engrossing (to the
> people who created those things) expresiveness in there. look at
> the construction and details of the shrine/hut (I'm working on
> memory here) where she first meat the Japanese fan club contingent.
The problem of course is getting the players to go along with it,
especially if there is a ready way for them to prove their worth
through combat.
> Advancement scales are fun. That's great, but you have to get
> people off that bandwagon and into more interesting and less
> deterministic affairs before they realise that the ladder ends and
> that there is nowhere to go from there.
> How to do that? Make things other than advancement more and more
> enticing. You don't want it (non-advancement) TOO enticing too
> quickly, as the presence of the scale is important. It gets people
> playing the game and knowledgable about the game and game world.
Not to certain this is possible, nor that it is at all important.
You describe something of the average mush where combat mechanisms
are absent or rudimentary at best. Players are interested in those
games and the apparent lack of advancement does not seem to disap-
point them in the least. If the game offers many other things to
do then you should not be surprised that they actually go out and
do them, nor should you feel that is somehow inferior. Combat and
levels need not be the by all and end all of a game.
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey - Levels versus Skills Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Levels versus Skills J C Lawrence
- Levels versus Skills quzah [softhome]
- Levels versus Skills Vladimir Prelovac
- Levels versus Skills quzah [softhome]
- Levels versus Skills J C Lawrence
- Levels versus Skills Petri Virkkula
- Levels versus Skills J C Lawrence
- Levels versus Skills Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- From Devmud: Database module, draft 3 Greg Connor
- Matrix Game Ling
- Graphic design doc Thinus Barnard
- Graphic design doc Chris Gray
- ADMIN: List server and Kanga.Nu host changes J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: List server and Kanga.Nu host changes Koster, Raph
- Sockets and fibers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Sockets and fibers Adam J. Thornton
- Sockets and fibers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Sockets and fibers J C Lawrence
- Sockets and fibers Jon A. Lambert
- Sockets and fibers Adam J. Thornton
- Sockets and fibers Dr. Cat
- Sockets and fibers Jo Dillon
- [DevMUD] From Devmud: Database module, draft 3 Greg Connor
- META: list "peerage" Koster, Raph
- META: list "peerage" John Bertoglio
- META: list "peerage" diablo@best.com
- META: list "peerage" Andy Cink
- META: list "peerage" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- META: list "peerage" Quzah [softhome]
- META: list "peerage" Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- META: list "peerage" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- META: list "peerage" Holly Sommer
- META: list "peerage" Travis S. Casey
- META: list "peerage" Andy Cink
- META: list "peerage" Quzah [softhome]
- META: list "peerage" Matthew D. Fuller
- META: list "peerage" Laurel Fan
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- META: List "peerage" Marian Griffith
- META: List "peerage" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- META: list "peerage" Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- META: list "peerage" Sayeed
- Mugu Chris Gray
- META: List peerage and behaviour J C Lawrence
- META: list "peerage" Chris Gray
- ADMIN: We're working again. J C Lawrence
- Java I/O and threads. Elis Pomales
- Java I/O and threads. Jo Dillon
- Java I/O and threads. cynbe@muq.org
- Java I/O and threads. Jo Dillon
- Java I/O and threads. Elis Pomales
- Reset Death Wes Connell
- Reset Death Quzah [softhome]
- Reset Death Wes Connell
- Reset Death Mik Clarke
- Reset Death Andrew C.M. McClintock
- Reset Death Mik Clarke
- PvP and mob capacities (was "List Peerage") Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- combat diablo@best.com
- META: list "peerage" Darrin Hyrup
- META: list "peerage" J C Lawrence
- Telmaron and Mud servers was: META: list "peerage" Elis Pomales
- META: list "peerage" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
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- Who is? (was about level vs skills) Marian Griffith
- Who is? (was about level vs skills) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- exploration points diablo@best.com
- [MUD-Dev] Juha Lindfors
- Stock Mud Demographics ##Make Nylander
- ADMIN: Off-topic and the ever present reminders on quoting. J C Lawrence
- Mud reviewing Andy Cink
- Mud reviewing Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing Andru Luvisi
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing J C Lawrence
- Mud reviewing Dan Shiovitz
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing Richard Woolcock
- Mud reviewing David Bennett
- Mud reviewing Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD Admin skills Hal Black
- Subdue Holly Sommer
- processors diablo@best.com
- processors John Bertoglio
- processors Wes Connell
- processors Laurel Fan
- processors Mik Clarke
- processors J C Lawrence
- processors diablo@best.com
- processors Quzah [softhome]
- processors Mik Clarke
- processors J C Lawrence
- processors Marc Hernandez
- processors Adam Wiggins
- processors Greg Underwood
- processors Adam Wiggins
- processors Chris Gray
- processors gunderwood@donet.com
- processors Jon A. Lambert
- processors Greg Underwood
- processors Petri Virkkula
- quests involving players diablo@best.com
- quests involving players Darren Henderson
- quests involving players Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- quests involving players Richard Woolcock