January 1999
- From DevMud: Database module Greg Connor
- From DevMud: Database module Mik Clarke
- From DevMud: Database module Greg Connor
- From DevMud: Database module J C Lawrence
- From DevMud: Database module Greg Connor
- ADMIN: Resends and possible duplicates J C Lawrence
- Info about different skill systems Emil Eifrem
- Info about different skill systems Nathan F Yospe
- Info about different skill systems Ben Greear
- Info about different skill systems Emil Eifrem
- Info about different skill systems Ben Greear
- Info about different skill systems Emil Eifrem
- Info about different skill systems Nathan F Yospe
- Info about different skill systems Travis S. Casey
- Info about different skill systems Mik Clarke
- New features for ScryMUD (Player-run Shops) Ben Greear
- [OT Humor] Mudder's Rhapsody Jon A. Lambert
- [OT Humor] Mudder's Rhapsody Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [OT Humor] Mudder's Rhapsody The Wildman
- Guild/skill/spell relation (or "webs") Petri Virkkula
- Guild/skill/spell relation (or "webs") David Bennett
- mobile movement Matthew Mihaly
- mobile movement Adam Wiggins
- mobile movement Koster, Raph
- mobile movement Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement David Bennett
- mobile movement Kylotan
- mobile movement quzah [softhome]
- mobile movement Ling
- mobile movement J C Lawrence
- mobile movement Oliver Jowett
- mobile movement Oliver Jowett
- mobile movement Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement Richard Woolcock
- mobile movement J C Lawrence
- mobile movement Ling
- mobile movement Marc Hernandez
- mobile movement J C Lawrence
- mobile movement Ling
- mobile movement Holly Sommer
- mobile movement Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement Koster, Raph
- mobile movement Chris Gray
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu (was J C Lawrence
- [RRE]MediaMOO annual birthday symposia: 1/20 Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- [RRE]MediaMOO annual birthday symposia: 1/20 Koster, Raph
- OT: Mike Sellers needs some help load testing J C Lawrence
- Keegan's MUD Tree J C Lawrence
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Marian Griffith
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Dominic J. Eidson
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu J C Lawrence
- Intelligent WebGlimpse archive searching at Kanga.Nu Marian Griffith
- GRASS GIS Web Site Elis Pomales
- Thoughts Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- mobile movement (the fault of tracking) quzah [softhome]
- ADMIN Name server problems and upes J C Lawrence
- Adjective Server Christopher Allen
- Reputations, More Mazes Eli Stevens {KiZurich}
- Reputations, More Mazes J C Lawrence
- Reputations, More Mazes Eli Stevens {KiZurich}
- Mules (was something different) Marian Griffith
- Mules (was something different) J C Lawrence
- Mules (was something different) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Levels versus Skills Marian Griffith
- Levels versus Skills Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Levels versus Skills J C Lawrence
On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:15:28 +0000 (GMT)
Marian Griffith<gryphon@iaehv.nl> wrote:
> On Fri 15 Jan, J C Lawrence wrote:
>> Comments on zero-sum games etc are apt and welcome.
>> The problem with both of course is that they are demoralising.
>> There is no winning, you can only stand still or fall behind. We
>> can cover up this flaw in #1 by repainting it as "re-inventing"
>> or other cute terms. The principle remains the same however, the
>> game is regeared to put everybody back at ground zero -- just
>> without making them feel that they've lost in the process
>> (concentrate on the new race/game instead of what is lost).
> Do not most muds already do just this every time they add new
> features, races, classes, areas? They up the levels in some way
> by increasing the power level acheivable to players.
Yes, but its a finite solution for an infinite problem.
1) Consider a game X where Tiamat has a strength of 100.
2) Players play this game and initially are fleas before Tiamat's
might.
3) Later the same players are able to kill Tiamat with some ease.
Solution:
Change Tiamat's strength to 1,000.
Problem:
Sooner or later the cycle restarts from #3 and you need to rescale
Tiamat. This in turn forms and endless ratrace and all that really
changes is the fact that the numbers get bigger -- but the ratios
stay (mostly) the same.
>> The problem from a game design viewpoint is that #2 is horribly
>> expensive. It means that you can't just put a game on
>> maintenance, but you have to actually re-write and re-design and
>> re-do the whole damn thing with fair frequency,
> I am fairly sure I do not understand at all why this must be so.
Because every time around the loop yuo essentially have to redesign
your game. Just scaling the numbers bigger is a very temproary
bandaide. You have to add new features, new races, classes, spells,
etc etc etc, all of which require reblancing the game (very
non-trivial), active monitoring, and all the other aspects of game
redesign.
>> What's the key problem? The very concept of the advancement
>> scale. It just doesn't work over the long term. It is an
>> evolutionary dead end. Why? Because you can't maintain the
>> process that drives the advancement scale. No matter how hard
>> you try to make and keep the game open ended (which is really
>> what I am talking about), sooner or later, and likely far sooner
>> than later, burnout beckons. You *have* to divert to softer more
>> organic realms where non-deterministic development is more
>> important than direct comparison and ranking and linear genetalia
>> measuring is no longer your stock in trade.
>> Even then atrophy isn't really a solution. All it really does is
>> make the scale longer. Now, instead of being able to climb from
>> 1 to 100 in simple fashion, you're now walking uphill against
>> "atrophy".
> True, though if you manage to separate the power level from the
> player level it should be more manageable I think. Instead of
> concentrating on ways to make characters weaker you can concen-
> trate on handling the more socially oriented aspect of player
> levels.
Exactly. You have to get players off the power-is-everything kick
and into less direct interests before the scale runs out.
>> Expressive fertility seems like the real key here. Have a look
>> at the Walled City in Gibson's Idoru. Look at the general
>> handling of virtual reality in the same book. There's a *LOT* of
>> careful, detailed, highly imaginative and really really
>> engrossing (to the people who created those things) expresiveness
>> in there. Look at the construction and details of the shrine/hut
>> (I'm working on memory here) where she first meat the Japanese
>> fan club contingent.
> The problem of course is getting the players to go along with it,
> especially if there is a ready way for them to prove their worth
> through combat.
I'm going to go out on a limb here:
I suspect that the main problem with the combat model of most MUDs
is that it is survivable. What seems the real solution: Make combat
deadly and make combatants very short lived. Yup, there are people
who try and live/play by killing things. They don't live long (say
a few days RL time), but they make a lot of noise. There are also
more moderate players, active in a wide range of areas -- they tend
to live far longer due to the lower risk levels.
The next problem of course is that typically the non-fighters are
perfect and readily available prey for the wanna-be fighters, and
due to the nature of their non-combat lives, and so have no defence
against the fighters (cf you're wonderful Tailor scenario).
Possible address:
Defence, even against excellant and skilled attack, is easy and
cheap (as long as you are on your own territory), but you *can't*
attack while defending.
Attack is viciously effective, but only against other attackers.
The game tracks your attack/defence actions, much in the manner of
UO's reputation system, and players on the negative side can't
defend.
I'm not happy with this, but it seems a start. Need to think about
this some more.
>> Advancement scales are fun. That's great, but you have to get
>> people off that bandwagon and into more interesting and less
>> deterministic affairs before they realise that the ladder ends
>> and that there is nowhere to go from there.
>> How to do that? Make things other than advancement more and more
>> enticing. You don't want it (non-advancement) TOO enticing too
>> quickly, as the presence of the scale is important. It gets
>> people playing the game and knowledgable about the game and game
>> world.
> Not to certain this is possible, nor that it is at all important.
> You describe something of the average mush where combat mechanisms
> are absent or rudimentary at best. Players are interested in those
> games and the apparent lack of advancement does not seem to disap-
> point them in the least. If the game offers many other things to
> do then you should not be surprised that they actually go out and
> do them, nor should you feel that is somehow inferior. Combat and
> levels need not be the by all and end all of a game.
<nod> Understood. However in simple numbers combat MUDs are more
popular than MUSHes, and have a much lower barrier to entrance than
such MUShes (anybody can figure out Quake, many never did figure out
Myst). The trick I'm desribing is how to attempt to make a
low-barrier-to-entrence combat game that later, as the players
continue to play, mutates into a more MUSh-style game FOR THAT
PLAYER. The goal is player retention. Combat players burn out,
move on, get bored. Softer players last longer and make you more
$$$.
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw@kanga.nu
(Contractor) Internet: coder@kanga.nu
---------(*) Internet: claw@under.engr.sgi.com
...Honorary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... - Levels versus Skills quzah [softhome]
- Levels versus Skills Vladimir Prelovac
- Levels versus Skills quzah [softhome]
- Levels versus Skills J C Lawrence
- Levels versus Skills Petri Virkkula
- Levels versus Skills J C Lawrence
- Levels versus Skills Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- From Devmud: Database module, draft 3 Greg Connor
- Matrix Game Ling
- Graphic design doc Thinus Barnard
- Graphic design doc Chris Gray
- ADMIN: List server and Kanga.Nu host changes J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: List server and Kanga.Nu host changes Koster, Raph
- Sockets and fibers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Sockets and fibers Adam J. Thornton
- Sockets and fibers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Sockets and fibers J C Lawrence
- Sockets and fibers Jon A. Lambert
- Sockets and fibers Adam J. Thornton
- Sockets and fibers Dr. Cat
- Sockets and fibers Jo Dillon
- [DevMUD] From Devmud: Database module, draft 3 Greg Connor
- META: list "peerage" Koster, Raph
- META: list "peerage" John Bertoglio
- META: list "peerage" diablo@best.com
- META: list "peerage" Andy Cink
- META: list "peerage" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- META: list "peerage" Quzah [softhome]
- META: list "peerage" Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
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- META: list "peerage" Holly Sommer
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- Mugu Chris Gray
- META: List peerage and behaviour J C Lawrence
- META: list "peerage" Chris Gray
- ADMIN: We're working again. J C Lawrence
- Java I/O and threads. Elis Pomales
- Java I/O and threads. Jo Dillon
- Java I/O and threads. cynbe@muq.org
- Java I/O and threads. Jo Dillon
- Java I/O and threads. Elis Pomales
- Reset Death Wes Connell
- Reset Death Quzah [softhome]
- Reset Death Wes Connell
- Reset Death Mik Clarke
- Reset Death Andrew C.M. McClintock
- Reset Death Mik Clarke
- PvP and mob capacities (was "List Peerage") Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- combat diablo@best.com
- META: list "peerage" Darrin Hyrup
- META: list "peerage" J C Lawrence
- Telmaron and Mud servers was: META: list "peerage" Elis Pomales
- META: list "peerage" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- META: list "peerage" Ben Greear
- Who is? (was about level vs skills) Marian Griffith
- Who is? (was about level vs skills) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- exploration points diablo@best.com
- [MUD-Dev] Juha Lindfors
- Stock Mud Demographics ##Make Nylander
- ADMIN: Off-topic and the ever present reminders on quoting. J C Lawrence
- Mud reviewing Andy Cink
- Mud reviewing Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing Andru Luvisi
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing J C Lawrence
- Mud reviewing Dan Shiovitz
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Mud reviewing diablo@best.com
- Mud reviewing Richard Woolcock
- Mud reviewing David Bennett
- Mud reviewing Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD Admin skills Hal Black
- Subdue Holly Sommer
- processors diablo@best.com
- processors John Bertoglio
- processors Wes Connell
- processors Laurel Fan
- processors Mik Clarke
- processors J C Lawrence
- processors diablo@best.com
- processors Quzah [softhome]
- processors Mik Clarke
- processors J C Lawrence
- processors Marc Hernandez
- processors Adam Wiggins
- processors Greg Underwood
- processors Adam Wiggins
- processors Chris Gray
- processors gunderwood@donet.com
- processors Jon A. Lambert
- processors Greg Underwood
- processors Petri Virkkula
- quests involving players diablo@best.com
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- quests involving players Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- quests involving players Richard Woolcock