September 1998
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Encryption of protocols, compression and lag... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Encryption of protocols, compression and lag... Adam J. Thornton
- Equipment Fit Holly Sommer
- Equipment Fit Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Equipment Fit Holly Sommer
- Equipment Fit pomales
- Equipment Fit Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Equipment Fit Brandon Cline
- Equipment Fit Matthew R. Sheahan
- Equipment Fit Chris Gray
- VT-100 and other terminal data J C Lawrence
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Ben Greear
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Holly Sommer
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Ross Nicoll
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? T. Alexander Popiel
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? chris@realm.zfn.uni-bremen.de
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Marc Hernandez
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
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- Wild idea.. :) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Wild idea.. :) Adam J. Thornton
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Vadim Tkachenko
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Vadim Tkachenko
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Adam J. Thornton
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) quzah
- Wild idea.. :) Adam Wiggins
- Wild idea.. :) Jon A. Lambert
- Wild idea.. :) Vadim Tkachenko
- Wild idea.. :) Nathan F Yospe
- Wild idea.. :) Damion Schubert
- Wild idea.. :) Chris Gray
- Re:Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- ADMIN: Unsubscription J C Lawrence
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- npc memory and reactions James Wilson
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- npc memory and reactions Richard Woolcock
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- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ben Greear
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- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ben Greear
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? T. Alexander Popiel
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- Economics: Arrow's Impossibility Theorem Koster, Raph
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- Off-topic! Windows-> Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems Adam Wiggins
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- Introducing the background hook Ling
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- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Hal Black
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths James Wilson
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths James Wilson
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Matthew R. Sheahan
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Richard Woolcock
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Jo Dillon
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Damion Schubert
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marc Hernandez
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths J C Lawrence
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths T. Alexander Popiel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths J C Lawrence
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Chris Gray
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths S. Patrick Gallaty
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marian Griffith
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Ryan Prince
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Peck, Matthew x96724c1
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Jon A. Lambert
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marian Griffith
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marian Griffith
On Sat 03 Oct, apocalypse@pipeline.com wrote:
> >From Marian Griffith :
> >Maybe it is interesting for you. But have you ever spent much time
> >thinking how it is for your victims? If you have not then you are not
> >acting but behaving like a sociopath. Somebody who is self centered
> >and not empathising with others. In the case of a pathological socio-
> >path there is a real unability to do so. In muds it, like (I think it
> >was) Raph said, is because the lack of communication makes it easy to
> >ignore that there are real people with real feelings behind the text.
> >You are not a sociopath, but the effect you have on other people is
> >the same.
> Im going to have to interject that I think this issue has been taken
> magna extremis. I cant believe that even a moderate size of the
> mud population is going to have any amount of psychological
> damage because they were "pk'ed" or they lost their "great
> shiny ring of happiness" in an online game.
Yes. I intentionally exaggerated things somewhat. However this should
not obscure the point I was trying to make.
First, virtual sociopath on a mud is somebody who does not empathise
with the other players but is only interested in his own fun. This is
much the same as a schoolyard bully.
Second, to the victim of the virtual sociopath the experience ranges
somewhere between unpleasant and traumatic. Very few players will be
unmoved by it. Very few players will be severely traumatised by it,
but even one is too many as far as I am concerned.
Third, the effect is similar to that of a real sociopath in that real
negative emotions are invoked in the victim for no other reason than
to entertain the virtual sociopath. The victim feels fear, worthless-
ness, helplessness and despair. While the depth of these emotions may
be less than those invoked in a victim of a rl assault or rape, they
are still basically the same. And yes, I speak from personal exper-
ience.
Fourth, the virtual sociopath is not (or at least very rarely) a real
sociopath. A real sociopath is somebody with a pathological inability
to empathise with others. They do things because they can not feel it
is wrong. Some of them do horrible things and they eventually end up
as serial killers. Most of them simply make bad husbands.
On muds the virtual sociopath is, like somebody pointed out elsewhere
in this thread, more like a four old child. Not unable to empathise,
but unused to do so. Since a mud provides very few clues about that a
person is really behind the character, it is very simple to ignore it
and do whatever you like to other characters. In children this unde-
sirable trait is removed through education (most of the time). In an
online society much the same must happen.
The meaning of virtual sociapath is somebody without social skills in
a virtual environment.
> Raph Koster :
(this actually was not written by Raph but by Benjamin D. Wiechel)
> >> What I would
> >> define to be bad would be when the players within the mud do nothing to
> >> solve the difficult situation on their own, and instead whine at the gods
> >> and the admins to take the player away. Part of my enjoyment on the
> >> only mud I play is to in-character solve such problems. When I was a
> small
> >> player, I was twice hunted by massive players. My reaction was not to
> whine
> >> or cry, but to instead grow at a rapid rate until suddenly they were the
> >> small player by comparison. Very effective method of keeping someone
> from
> >> killing you.
>
>
> Substance at last. Does anyone actually perform a psyche eval. on the
> oncoming "demon class" cruisers' crew in subspace before it blows
> your tiny ship to little bits? The topic of a model for better mud
> administration warrants study, wether it be hard-coded procedures and
> player commands, or human intervention.
I am not sure what you are trying to say by this.
> Marian Griffith :
> >The whole point of the Tailor Scenario is what do we do for players who
> >can not, or do not want to, play that kill or be killed game?
> set_bit(player,no_pk); /*This player does not wish to attack, or be attacked
> by humans*/
> It could also encompas attacks by charmed mobs, and "flame channels"
Personally I think that since the underlying problem is a social one it
should be solved through social means.
> Marian Griffith:
> >1- A lot friendlier. (After all you can talk to people without having to
> > assume they are out to kill you)
> I doubt it. Just because a person dosent have the option to kill another
> player in no way means friendlier. They can verbally, publicly (chat)
> privately(tell),physically(emote/social), and with charmed mobs,
> be VERY unfriendly. If the guy has a bad day, and wants to take it
> out on someone, just because he cant kill someone, dosent mean
> he is just going to sit there quietly wallowing in misery.
What really frightens me is that you seem to think it normal for some
player to take his bad mood out on others.
> >2- Much more realistic. (How many sociopaths have you met? And those who
> > do have a tendency to die horribly, not enjoying the experience.)
> Uh, Jefferey Dahmer? Charles Manson? They didnt kill everyone they met,
> only the ones who tasted good with fava beans :), or the ones who thought
> they were god. You, in your neighborhood, have, on the average, at least
> on such individual. And as far as meeting one, im quite sure, we have all
> met several, and never known it. The statistics are common among FBI
> profilers, and other organizations that track such patterns.
I suppose you know what you are talking about but there is meeting and
meeting. Just because we have walked in the same street does not mean
I have met somebody.
> >3- Playable for all players, instead of only those who are interested in
> > becoming the biggest bully, and taking whatever comes at them until
> > that goal is reached.
> Id say thats definately not on the mark. Even on the HUGE muds (150+ players
> at all times), they dont have this mass hysteria of killings, and by
> definition, as the populace increases so will the potential. All the player
> has to do (if its coded) is request that non-pk flag.
That really addresses not at all what I was saying. Benjamin asked what
a mud would be without people acting like sociopaths to spice things up
and I answered that the game would be playable for more people.
> Marian Griffith:
> >Killer or not is not the real problem. Being social/empathic or not
> >is. Random (or excessive) Killing is just the most obvious symptom
> >of players who are not social. However this will perhaps (!) only
> >make players "toe the line" as it were. It will not help in making
> >them more empathic towards others.
> Again, just because they PK in no way means they are not social.
> Hungry wolves eat their own kind...does that mean they arent
> social? no..they are highly social.
Hungry wolves need a very good reason to attack their own. Not many PK
players do. From what I have seen the best reason they can come up is:
"because I felt like it.", with "It is only a game." being a good se-
cond.
> And here is where my
> magna extremis argument comes to bear. I dont think a mud
> should try to or is able to, enable anyone to be more empatic
> than they are. Once the computer is shut off, and tommy goes
> back to school, and gets beat up by those nasty boys in gym, he
> is surely not going to do a psyche eval on them. He will probably
> go home, and vent his angst/tension on some alien invading race
> in one of his many escapes from reality (games).
Which is fine to me if it is a game. I think he crosses a line if it
is other players he wants to beat up in turn. It may be understand-
able that he does but those other players are not on the game for his
convenience. They want to have a good time too. If that happens to be
fighting battles with other players then it is fine, but for those of
the players who have other interests something has to be done.
> Raph Koster:
(This too was written by Benjamin D. Wiechel, not by Raph Koster)
> >> 5) Quests that require members with unique skills, so that no
> >> one player can accomplish all goals single-handedly.
> Marian Griffith:
> >Not just quests really. Gameplay in general should require groups.
> Require groups? Isnt that a little bit far? what about late night
> when there are consistently 2-4 people on who cant log on during
> the "normal" crowded hours?
A game that requires groups to play may not be a general solution as
far as gameplay is concerned, but it does help strengthening social
awareness in players. If you need other players to play a game, you
are going to be a lot more interested in their well being. Which is
the basis for all social skills.
> Ill agree that generic quests have flaws for high powered characters
> but I cant see mandatory grouping as the general rule.
It does if you want a (combat) game that promotes strong social ties
between the players.
> Marian Griffith :
> >I'm not sure if the problem of lack of empathy with other players
> >can be solved through in-game solutions. The real problem is in
> >the players not in the game.
> Should a game, operative word game, try to solve someones RL problems?
I think not. You could perhaps have a try and establish an social en-
vironment that encourages desirable behaviour, but even that is very
difficult. I also think that something like this is inevitable for a
truly large scale game. Bad (or rather: destructive) players have a
disproportional effect on a game.
> Marian Griffith:
> >As long as people continue to ignore
> >the fact that there are real people with real feelings behind the
> >characters and that to others it may -not- be 'just a game' to be
> >attacked the problem of virtual sociopaths is going to exist.
> I doubt the player ignores it, im sure they are counting on it.
> For what other reason, than to try to pawn off her bad feelings
> on someone else?
> Im sorry, but even mother nature kicks the baby bird out of the nest.
> Everyone sulks, everyone has temper outbursts, and everyone,
> even those 80 year old plinths of wisdom have either acted out
> or contemplated revenge (socially, or physically).
Yes, but does that make it right? desirable? acceptable?
> I thought the point of a game, was kind of like therapy. To escape,
> and deal with outside issues, by doing things that you cant do
> in everyday life. What about the healing process of releasing angst
> through gameplay? Humans have done that since the dawn of time.
Personally I play a game for entirely different reasons. I guess that
proves that the more players you have the more different things you
must allow, and the better you must ensure that those conflicting in-
terests do not adversely affect each other?
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey - Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Project: ROADS database of MUD-related papers? J C Lawrence
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- Forced story line... quzah [sotfhome]
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- (had no title) quzah [sotfhome]
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- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? ##Make Nylander
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- Medievia Koster, Raph
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- let's call it a spellcraft quzah [sotfhome]
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- spell design systems Travis Casey
- [CUSTOM] ScryMUD Source release 1.6.0 Ben Greear
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- Legend's speech system and moods quzah [sotfhome]
- Putting names on things(Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
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- Let's talk about numbers. Jon A. Lambert
- Let's talk about numbers. T. Alexander Popiel
- Let's talk about numbers. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Let's talk about numbers. Jon A. Lambert
- Let's talk about numbers. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Let's talk about numbers. Adam J. Thornton
- Let's talk about numbers. Adam J. Thornton
- Let's talk about numbers. Jon A. Lambert
- Let's talk about numbers. Jon A. Lambert
- Let's talk about numbers. Jon A. Lambert
- Let's talk about numbers. Brandon J. Rickman
- Metroworks JIT for Linux J C Lawrence
- numbers - was spellcraft Orion Henry
- Zelda Online Orion Henry
- FPL: Another embeddable bytecoded scripting language J C Lawrence
- Game Design Issues (Was: let's call it a spel Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- let's call it a spellcraft Andy Cink
- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- let's call it a spellcraft Adam J. Thornton
- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- let's call it a spellcraft Vadim Tkachenko
- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- let's call it a spellcraft James Wilson
- let's call it a spellcraft Matthew R. Sheahan
- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- let's call it a spellcraft Travis Casey
- let's call it a spellcraft Vadim Tkachenko
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Jon A. Lambert
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Kylotan
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Adam Wiggins
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) J C Lawrence
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Adam Wiggins
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Adam J. Thornton
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) J C Lawrence
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Koster, Raph
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Koster, Raph
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Jon Leonard
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) Nathan F Yospe
- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) Travis Casey
- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) J C Lawrence
- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [MUD-Dev] apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Marian Griffith
- Room descriptions Orion Henry
- Room descriptions Raph & Kristen Koster
- Room descriptions Hal Black
- Room descriptions apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Room descriptions Travis Casey
- Room descriptions Hal Black
- Room descriptions apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Room descriptions Hal Black
- Room descriptions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Room descriptions J C Lawrence
- Room descriptions apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Room descriptions Hal Black
- Room descriptions J C Lawrence
- Room descriptions Nathan F Yospe
- Room descriptions Hal Black
- Room descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Room descriptions #Make Nylander
- Room descriptions quzah [sotfhome]
- Room descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions J C Lawrence
- Room descriptions Nathan F Yospe
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions S. Patrick Gallaty
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions S. Patrick Gallaty
- Room descriptions Travis S. Casey
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Room descriptions Jon A. Lambert
- Room descriptions Travis S. Casey
- Room descriptions ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Room descriptions Jon A. Lambert
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Nathan F Yospe
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Room descriptions J C Lawrence
- Room descriptions Travis Casey
- Room descriptions Chris Gray
- Room descriptions Adam J. Thornton
- Room descriptions Chris Gray
- Room descriptions Chris Gray
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- MCP/2.1 client-server message protocol... Andrew Wilson
- EC Habitats Beta Program URL... Andrew Wilson
- Autogenerated room descriptions T. Alexander Popiel
- Autogenerated room descriptions J C Lawrence
- Autogenerated room descriptions Nathan F Yospe
- Autogenerated room descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Autogenerated room descriptions S. Patrick Gallaty
- [CUSTOM] ScryMUD is opening for Beta on Oct 1! Ben Greear
- A little help Dale Hoffman
- A little help Robert Woods
- A little help Ling
- A little help Marc Bowden
- A little help Ling
- A little help Richard Woolcock
- A little help Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- A little help Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- A little help T. Alexander Popiel
- A little help chris@realm.zfn.uni-bremen.de
- A little help Marc Bowden
- A little help Koster, Raph
- A little help Koster, Raph
- Mud adverts, was: ScryMUD is opening for Beta on Oct 1! Richard Woolcock
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Adam Wiggins
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) James Wilson
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Adam Wiggins
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- UO lawsuit (fwd) Adam Wiggins
- UO lawsuit (fwd) Koster, Raph
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) J C Lawrence
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Ben Greear
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Bruce Mitchener
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Marc Bowden
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Chris Gray
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Ben Greear
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. James Wilson
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Chris Gray