September 1998
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Encryption of protocols, compression and lag... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Encryption of protocols, compression and lag... Adam J. Thornton
- Equipment Fit Holly Sommer
- Equipment Fit Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Equipment Fit Holly Sommer
- Equipment Fit pomales
- Equipment Fit Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Equipment Fit Brandon Cline
- Equipment Fit Matthew R. Sheahan
- Equipment Fit Chris Gray
- VT-100 and other terminal data J C Lawrence
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Ben Greear
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Holly Sommer
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Ross Nicoll
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? T. Alexander Popiel
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? chris@realm.zfn.uni-bremen.de
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Marc Hernandez
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Adam Wiggins
- Wild idea.. :) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Wild idea.. :) Adam J. Thornton
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Vadim Tkachenko
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Vadim Tkachenko
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Adam J. Thornton
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) quzah
- Wild idea.. :) Adam Wiggins
- Wild idea.. :) Jon A. Lambert
- Wild idea.. :) Vadim Tkachenko
- Wild idea.. :) Nathan F Yospe
- Wild idea.. :) Damion Schubert
- Wild idea.. :) Chris Gray
- Re:Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- ADMIN: Unsubscription J C Lawrence
- npc memory and reactions James Wilson
- npc memory and reactions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- npc memory and reactions James Wilson
- npc memory and reactions T. Alexander Popiel
- npc memory and reactions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- npc memory and reactions Adam Wiggins
- npc memory and reactions Richard Woolcock
- npc memory and reactions Ross Nicoll
- (fwd) CODE RELEASE: [server] SlashMUD (MacOS mud server) J C Lawrence
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ben Greear
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? T. Alexander Popiel
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ben Greear
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Richard Woolcock
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Adam J. Thornton
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ben Greear
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ben Greear
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? T. Alexander Popiel
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Adam Wiggins
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Travis S. Casey
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Richard Woolcock
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? J C Lawrence
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Adam J. Thornton
- Equipment Fit, enlightenment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Adventure on the web J C Lawrence
- A Java front end to ECGS (finally) J C Lawrence
- PERL based MUDs J C Lawrence
- Economics: Arrow's Impossibility Theorem J C Lawrence
- Economics: Arrow's Impossibility Theorem Koster, Raph
- Windows->Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems J C Lawrence
- Windows->Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems Vadim Tkachenko
- Windows->Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems Chris Gray
- Windows->Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems Alex Stewart
- OT: Windows-> Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems J C Lawrence
- Off-topic! Windows-> Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems Adam Wiggins
- Equipment fit revisited Andy Cink
- X, Y & Z. Scott Cade
- An accidental experiment with language Damion Schubert
- Off-topic! Windows-> Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems J C Lawrence
- Admin: Unsubscriptions J C Lawrence
- Admin: Unsubscriptions Alex Oren
- Admin: Unsubscriptions J C Lawrence
- cellular automata as universe models James Wilson
- cellular automata as universe models Joel Kelso
- cellular automata as universe models James Wilson
- [off-topic] news! Travis Casey
- [off-topic] news! J C Lawrence
- [off-topic] news! Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai
- Introducing the background hook Ling
- Introducing the background hook J C Lawrence
- Introducing the background hook chris@realm.zfn.uni-bremen.de
- Introducing the background hook Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Introducing the background hook Matt Chatterley
- Off-topic! Off-topic! Windows-> Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems Adam Wiggins
- Lockless DB design (was Fw: lurker emerges) J C Lawrence
- PCCTS->ANTLR J C Lawrence
- MOSIX: Multi-computer Operating System for unIX J C Lawrence
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Hal Black
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths James Wilson
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths James Wilson
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Matthew R. Sheahan
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Richard Woolcock
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Jo Dillon
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Damion Schubert
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marc Hernandez
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths J C Lawrence
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths T. Alexander Popiel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths J C Lawrence
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Chris Gray
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths S. Patrick Gallaty
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marian Griffith
In <URL:/archives/meow?group+local.muddev> on Fri 02 Oct, Benjamin D. Wiechel wrote:
> From: Koster, Raph <rkoster@origin.ea.com>
> >This leads to an interesting conclusion for mud design--penalties won't
> >solve your playerkiller problem. Helping them gain empathy will.
The first part of your statement has already been proven true on too
many muds to mention. Hopefully you are right about the second part
as well.
> I suppose within this grouping of people, there are the people like me that
> perhaps enjoy role playing a character that is truly mean and vile, just to
> be a bit different than their reality. I personally enjoy the opportunity
> to act out the life of the defined "sociopath", as it creates an interest-
> ing flavor to the mud, and it also causes a reaction in people. Each
> person reacts differently to my behaviour, and it is interesting to see
> each of them.
Maybe it is interesting for you. But have you ever spent much time
thinking how it is for your victims? If you have not then you are not
acting but behaving like a sociopath. Somebody who is self centered
and not empathising with others. In the case of a pathological socio-
path there is a real unability to do so. In muds it, like (I think it
was) Raph said, is because the lack of communication makes it easy to
ignore that there are real people with real feelings behind the text.
You are not a sociopath, but the effect you have on other people is
the same.
> There's also the side effect that one can give with one hand and take
> with the other -- this time I might give you equipment,
> next time I might take your life.
> Somewhere I think someone got the idea that PK is bad. PK is not bad,
> even having an out of control PK character isn't bad.
Oh no. Player killing is bad in its own right, but for entirely dif-
ferent reasons that have nothing to do with this argument.
> What I would
> define to be bad would be when the players within the mud do nothing to
> solve the difficult situation on their own, and instead whine at the gods
> and the admins to take the player away. Part of my enjoyment on the
> only mud I play is to in-character solve such problems. When I was a small
> player, I was twice hunted by massive players. My reaction was not to whine
> or cry, but to instead grow at a rapid rate until suddenly they were the
> small player by comparison. Very effective method of keeping someone from
> killing you.
So. Your solution to defend against virtual sociopaths was becoming one
in turn. Or with slightly less exaggeration. To prevent players killing
your character you joined their game and became so big and bad that you
could kill them instead.
The whole point of the Tailor Scenario is what do we do for players who
for players who can not, or do not want to, play that kill or be killed
game?
> Also, for the true simulationists, what would the simulation be without a
> couple of sociopaths running around nixing everyone they pass?
1- A lot friendlier. (After all you can talk to people without having to
assume they are out to kill you)
2- Much more realistic. (How many sociopaths have you met? And those who
do have a tendency to die horribly, not enjoying the experience.)
3- Playable for all players, instead of only those who are interested in
becoming the biggest bully, and taking whatever comes at them until
that goal is reached.
(And I thought the simulation was at world building level, not at social
level).
> >Anyone got a handy-dandy set of tactics for this? :)
> >Classic ones are general community building ones, but these don't
> >necessarily target your troublemaking population. I have an essay on
> >community building tools at http://mud.sig.net/raph/gaming/essay6.html
> >but none of them seem REALLY aimed at empathy-building.
> Ones I'm currently reviewing are:
> 1) Tie players to a locale, ie. be a citizen of a city.
This, I think, is proof that you are succeeding, rather than a way
of achieving more empathy towards other players behind the charac-
ters.
> 2) Redefine the definition of top player to not be primarily based
> on sheer size and combat
Or better still remove the emphasis on ranking through conflict and
replace it by ranking through social interactions. If you can remo-
ve the ranking of players entirely that would be even better, but
this might be hard to achieve given human nature. (almost let some-
thing feminist and inaccurate slip through there ;)
A game like PernMush goes a long way in this direction.
> 3) Create in-game positions whereby players can regulate and
> reward actions based on whether they were done well IC or
> whether they were a nasty killer.
Killer or not is not the real problem. Being social/empathic or not
is. Random (or excessive) Killing is just the most obvious symptom
of players who are not social. However this will perhaps (!) only
make players "toe the line" as it were. It will not help in making
them more empathic towards others.
> 4) Create methods of societal building, ie., weapon breakage at
> a rapid rate, and a player that repairs weapons.
This I believe is crucial. If there is no society in the game then
there can not be any lasting social interaction.
With this comes the necessity that (social) actions must have im-
plications that last.
> 5) Quests that require members with unique skills, so that no
> one player can accomplish all goals single-handedly.
Not just quests really. Gameplay in general should require groups.
> 6) Unique challenges like the Vampire mentioned in relation to
> Legend? mud. Such honours can build "image" of a player.
Though this is very difficult to achieve due to "power attrition"
you can see in just about any mud. As players demand, and get,
ever more powerfull weapons and equipment, such challenges soon
lose their meaning. As a way of society building this is doubt-
full anyway, as it enforces the "king of the hill" approach where
you would want to stress a more egalitarian society.
I'm not sure if the problem of lack of empathy with other players
can be solved through in-game solutions. The real problem is in
the players not in the game. As long as people continue to ignore
the fact that there are real people with real feelings behind the
characters and that to others it may -not- be 'just a game' to be
attacked the problem of virtual sociopaths is going to exist.
Maybe the only solution is to treat players like 4 year olds who
have the same basic lack of social skills (but then in reality,
not in a mud). Unfortunately this requires an impossible large a-
mount of time from the staff, to remind the players that they are
hurting other player's feelings, that they would not like it when
it was done to them, and to reward them if they behave like, well
I guess I should call it, mature human beings. In the process you
also have to put up with childish sulks, temper tantrums and acts
of revenge. Hmm. Maybe the four year old analogy is really not so
bad. It also coincides with Dr.Cat's observation that some of the
best society leaders on his mud have a background in child care,
or nursery.
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey - Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Ryan Prince
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Peck, Matthew x96724c1
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Jon A. Lambert
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marian Griffith
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marian Griffith
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Project: ROADS database of MUD-related papers? J C Lawrence
- Admin J C Lawrence
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- AR's idea database Oliver Jowett
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- Forced story line... quzah [sotfhome]
- Forced story line... Marc Hernandez
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- (had no title) quzah [sotfhome]
- (subject missing) Vladimir Prelovac
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- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Koster, Raph
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- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? ##Make Nylander
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- Medievia Koster, Raph
- let's call it a spellcraft Vadim Tkachenko
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- let's call it a spellcraft Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- let's call it a spellcraft Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- let's call it a spellcraft James Wilson
- let's call it a spellcraft Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- let's call it a spellcraft Jon Leonard
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- let's call it a spellcraft Andy Cink
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- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
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- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Jon A. Lambert
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- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) J C Lawrence
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- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) J C Lawrence
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Koster, Raph
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Koster, Raph
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Jon Leonard
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) Nathan F Yospe
- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) Travis Casey
- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) J C Lawrence
- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [MUD-Dev] apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
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- Room descriptions Hal Black
- Room descriptions J C Lawrence
- Room descriptions Nathan F Yospe
- Room descriptions Hal Black
- Room descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Room descriptions #Make Nylander
- Room descriptions quzah [sotfhome]
- Room descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions J C Lawrence
- Room descriptions Nathan F Yospe
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions S. Patrick Gallaty
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions S. Patrick Gallaty
- Room descriptions Travis S. Casey
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Room descriptions Jon A. Lambert
- Room descriptions Travis S. Casey
- Room descriptions ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Room descriptions Jon A. Lambert
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Nathan F Yospe
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Room descriptions J C Lawrence
- Room descriptions Travis Casey
- Room descriptions Chris Gray
- Room descriptions Adam J. Thornton
- Room descriptions Chris Gray
- Room descriptions Chris Gray
- Room descriptions Koster, Raph
- Room descriptions Adam Wiggins
- MCP/2.1 client-server message protocol... Andrew Wilson
- EC Habitats Beta Program URL... Andrew Wilson
- Autogenerated room descriptions T. Alexander Popiel
- Autogenerated room descriptions J C Lawrence
- Autogenerated room descriptions Nathan F Yospe
- Autogenerated room descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Autogenerated room descriptions S. Patrick Gallaty
- [CUSTOM] ScryMUD is opening for Beta on Oct 1! Ben Greear
- A little help Dale Hoffman
- A little help Robert Woods
- A little help Ling
- A little help Marc Bowden
- A little help Ling
- A little help Richard Woolcock
- A little help Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- A little help Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- A little help T. Alexander Popiel
- A little help chris@realm.zfn.uni-bremen.de
- A little help Marc Bowden
- A little help Koster, Raph
- A little help Koster, Raph
- Mud adverts, was: ScryMUD is opening for Beta on Oct 1! Richard Woolcock
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Adam Wiggins
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) James Wilson
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Adam Wiggins
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- UO lawsuit (fwd) Adam Wiggins
- UO lawsuit (fwd) Koster, Raph
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) J C Lawrence
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Ben Greear
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Bruce Mitchener
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Marc Bowden
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Chris Gray
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Ben Greear
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. James Wilson
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Chris Gray