September 1998
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Encryption of protocols, compression and lag... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Encryption of protocols, compression and lag... Adam J. Thornton
- Equipment Fit Holly Sommer
- Equipment Fit Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Equipment Fit Holly Sommer
- Equipment Fit pomales
- Equipment Fit Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Equipment Fit Brandon Cline
- Equipment Fit Matthew R. Sheahan
- Equipment Fit Chris Gray
- VT-100 and other terminal data J C Lawrence
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Ben Greear
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Holly Sommer
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Ross Nicoll
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? T. Alexander Popiel
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Intermud Communication...is it worth it? chris@realm.zfn.uni-bremen.de
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Marc Hernandez
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Adam Wiggins
- Wild idea.. :) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Wild idea.. :) Adam J. Thornton
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Vadim Tkachenko
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Vadim Tkachenko
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) Adam J. Thornton
- Wild idea.. :) Ben Greear
- Wild idea.. :) quzah
- Wild idea.. :) Adam Wiggins
- Wild idea.. :) Jon A. Lambert
- Wild idea.. :) Vadim Tkachenko
- Wild idea.. :) Nathan F Yospe
- Wild idea.. :) Damion Schubert
- Wild idea.. :) Chris Gray
- Re:Intermud Communication...is it worth it? Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- ADMIN: Unsubscription J C Lawrence
- npc memory and reactions James Wilson
- npc memory and reactions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- npc memory and reactions James Wilson
- npc memory and reactions T. Alexander Popiel
- npc memory and reactions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- npc memory and reactions Adam Wiggins
- npc memory and reactions Richard Woolcock
- npc memory and reactions Ross Nicoll
- (fwd) CODE RELEASE: [server] SlashMUD (MacOS mud server) J C Lawrence
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ben Greear
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? T. Alexander Popiel
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ben Greear
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Richard Woolcock
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Adam J. Thornton
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ben Greear
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ben Greear
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? T. Alexander Popiel
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Adam Wiggins
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Travis S. Casey
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Richard Woolcock
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? J C Lawrence
- [CODE QUESTION] How to encode floats into bytes? Adam J. Thornton
- Equipment Fit, enlightenment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Adventure on the web J C Lawrence
- A Java front end to ECGS (finally) J C Lawrence
- PERL based MUDs J C Lawrence
- Economics: Arrow's Impossibility Theorem J C Lawrence
- Economics: Arrow's Impossibility Theorem Koster, Raph
- Windows->Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems J C Lawrence
- Windows->Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems Vadim Tkachenko
- Windows->Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems Chris Gray
- Windows->Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems Alex Stewart
- OT: Windows-> Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems J C Lawrence
- Off-topic! Windows-> Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems Adam Wiggins
- Equipment fit revisited Andy Cink
- X, Y & Z. Scott Cade
- An accidental experiment with language Damion Schubert
- Off-topic! Windows-> Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems J C Lawrence
- Admin: Unsubscriptions J C Lawrence
- Admin: Unsubscriptions Alex Oren
- Admin: Unsubscriptions J C Lawrence
- cellular automata as universe models James Wilson
- cellular automata as universe models Joel Kelso
- cellular automata as universe models James Wilson
- [off-topic] news! Travis Casey
- [off-topic] news! J C Lawrence
- [off-topic] news! Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai
- Introducing the background hook Ling
- Introducing the background hook J C Lawrence
- Introducing the background hook chris@realm.zfn.uni-bremen.de
- Introducing the background hook Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Introducing the background hook Matt Chatterley
- Off-topic! Off-topic! Windows-> Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems Adam Wiggins
- Lockless DB design (was Fw: lurker emerges) J C Lawrence
- PCCTS->ANTLR J C Lawrence
- MOSIX: Multi-computer Operating System for unIX J C Lawrence
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Hal Black
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths James Wilson
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths James Wilson
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Matthew R. Sheahan
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Richard Woolcock
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Jo Dillon
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Damion Schubert
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marc Hernandez
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths J C Lawrence
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths T. Alexander Popiel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths J C Lawrence
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Chris Gray
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths S. Patrick Gallaty
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Adam Wiggins
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marian Griffith
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Koster, Raph
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Ryan Prince
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Peck, Matthew x96724c1
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Jon A. Lambert
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marian Griffith
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Marian Griffith
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths apocalypse@pipeline.com
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths quzah [sotfhome]
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Project: ROADS database of MUD-related papers? J C Lawrence
- Admin J C Lawrence
- Admin: Unsubscriptions J C Lawrence
- AR's idea database Oliver Jowett
- AR's idea database James Wilson
- Forced story line... quzah [sotfhome]
- Forced story line... Marc Hernandez
- Forced story line... Damion Schubert
- ADMIN: Digests are now functioning J C Lawrence
- (had no title) quzah [sotfhome]
- (subject missing) Vladimir Prelovac
- (subject missing) J C Lawrence
- META: Web posting from list archives J C Lawrence
- META: What are you looking for in this list? J C Lawrence
- META: What are you looking for in this list? S. Patrick Gallaty
- META: What are you looking for in this list? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
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- META: What are you looking for in this list? J C Lawrence
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- META: What are you looking for in this list? J C Lawrence
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- META: What are you looking for in this list? Hal Black
- META: What are you looking for in this list? Joel Kelso
- META: What are you looking for in this list? ##Make Nylander
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- META: What are you looking for in this list? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- META: What are you looking for in this list? J C Lawrence
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- META: What are you looking for in this list? Felix A. Croes
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- META: who are we? Koster, Raph
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- META: who are we? T. Alexander Popiel
- META: who are we? Koster, Raph
- META: who are we? J C Lawrence
- META: who are we? quzah [sotfhome]
- META: who are we? Richard Woolcock
- META: who are we? J C Lawrence
- META: who are we? James Wilson
- META: who are we? Matt Chatterley
- META: who are we? Petri Virkkula
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- META: who are we? Matt Chatterley
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- META: who are we? Alex Stewart
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Koster, Raph
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Marc Hernandez
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Koster, Raph
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Koster, Raph
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Ryan Prince
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Koster, Raph
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Jo Dillon
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Ryan Prince
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? J C Lawrence
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Damion Schubert
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Andy Cink
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Koster, Raph
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? ##Make Nylander
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Richard Woolcock
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Hal Black
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? J C Lawrence
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Jon A. Lambert
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Koster, Raph
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Kylotan
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Koster, Raph
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? J C Lawrence
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Raph & Kristen Koster
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Damion Schubert
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Jon A. Lambert
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? J C Lawrence
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Koster, Raph
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Jon Leonard
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Kylotan
- Ugh, IS Diablo a mud? Jon Leonard
- Medievia Koster, Raph
- let's call it a spellcraft Vadim Tkachenko
- let's call it a spellcraft Adam J. Thornton
- let's call it a spellcraft Jon A. Lambert
- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- let's call it a spellcraft Marc Hernandez
- let's call it a spellcraft Vadim Tkachenko
- let's call it a spellcraft Adam Wiggins
- let's call it a spellcraft T. Alexander Popiel
- let's call it a spellcraft Brandon J. Rickman
- let's call it a spellcraft Adam J. Thornton
- let's call it a spellcraft Brandon J. Rickman
- let's call it a spellcraft Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- let's call it a spellcraft Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- let's call it a spellcraft James Wilson
- let's call it a spellcraft Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- let's call it a spellcraft Jon Leonard
- let's call it a spellcraft Brandon J. Rickman
- let's call it a spellcraft Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- let's call it a spellcraft S. Patrick Gallaty
- let's call it a spellcraft Andy Cink
- let's call it a spellcraft Adam J. Thornton
On Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 10:55:27AM -0700, S. Patrick Gallaty wrote:
> This is a flawed precept, IMO. Taking away the newbie
> stage has two effects. One it thrusts the new player into
> a complex situation (already developed skills)
So? "You are Big John Wallace. You play the bass really well, have a
magnificent singing voice, and consequently are in high demand at parties.
You can also drink more than three normal men."
> and secondly
> it robs the mud of that initiation phase where new players
> have to struggle and adapt.
Which is precisely the phase that scares most of them off. That whole
levels-one-to-three (in D&D terms) where I'm having to worry about dying
from a rat bite, or, worse, starvation because I can't make the three gold
that it would take to buy food is, for me, a stumbling block: if I play for
a while and I'm so weak that I'm continually frustrated, I'm going to leave
and never come back.
Face-to-face RPGs do this better because you have but one party and the GM
can tailor the challenge to an appropriate level. You can't do that in a
multiplayer environment where there's no way to stop a party of 10th-level
adventurers making life miserable for the 1st-level party nearby. If
everyone is "on the map" simultaneously, the high-level players will be
bored if the challenges appropriate to entry-level players are all that's
around; conversely, it's really frustrating to be low-level and keep
running into--through no particular fault of your own--things way too tough
to handle.
> Stop!
> The 'leveling' concept amonst adventuring muds is a
> tried and true concept. You are doing what UO did, imo
> which is to confuse playability. There's a very good reason
> why levels and level concepts work, and that simply is
> because it's an unambiguous marker of accomplishment.
So it is. It's not the only way to do it, though. Back to Real RPGs
(yeah, I know. Just tossing a little gasoline on the fire) there are
systems, like AD&D or MERP, that are level-based. There are also those
like GURPS or Chaosium's BRP-derived systems that aren't. It isn't clear
that one is better than the other; just two different approaches to
character development.
> Whenever you are thinking of designing a satisfying game
> system you have to remember the three elements.
> 1) Suspension of disbelief
> 2) Progress related to effort
> 3) Goal and reward
> We suffer through the design decisions of UO already - no
> need to emulate that.
One of the design decisions I would have done differently in UO is the
extreme weakness of beginning characters. Wander around. Go into the
woods. Get killed by a deer. Try again. Get killed again. Wander onto a
road outside the town. Get killed by a thug. Try again. Go into town.
Try to steal something since you can't buy anything much. Get killed. It
gets frustrating quick.
This has nothing to do with levels or their absence, and everything to do
with the design decision to make beginning players weak and make
advancement early on a very arduous process.
And then there's the question of progress related to effort: are only
players with the free time to play 8 hours a day to be rewarded? If so,
you have no commercial potential at all: people with jobs cannot devote
that much time to your game. There's no way (that I can think of) to do a
level-based game and make it much fun for casual gamers given the existence
of those who spend Entirely Too Much Time playing. Either you end up with
no positive reinforcement for the great majority of your players, or you
end up with a few powermad demigods stalking the landscape. The latter may
not be bad, depending on what you want to do with your game, but there are
certainly other approaches to take.
> If you don't want to let players become wizards, let them become
> something else - let them become in-game demigods or heroes,
> through quests and *cooperation of other players.*
> Instead of hard numbers, where the player has to tweak and max
> his own character, give him additional powers if he can convince
> other players to worship him, thus granting him additional powers
> once he has enough followers...
> My point is that this is a multi-player game. Leverage and maximize
> that multi-player aspect.. use it to your advantage and you have a
> whole new dimension to pursue.
IOW, make your rewards at least largely social, rather than purely
mechanical. Absolutely. Plus, if the players start creating plot
themselves, it's less work for you as a designer.
> The solution is not throw away the basic elements of successful game
> design. That won't get you anything but frustrated players and more
> ambiguous problems.
Nothing wrong with ambiguous problems, IMHO. As long as your players have
some feedback of how they--and those around them--are doing, be that
levels, skills, gold, social status, whatever. I just remain unconvinced
that levels are a basic element of successful game design. I can think of
too many interesting non-level-based systems (not, however, in the CRPG
world) to think that it's a sine qua non.
I think traditionally CRPGs and muds have been level-based largely because
they proceed from the D&D mechanics tradition, and it's easy to produce a
correct translation into computer game mechanics. Or at least easier than
it is with a fuzzier problem space. Still, if this list isn't the right
place to talk about approaches to fuzzy but maybe rewarding problems, I
don't know what s.
Adam
--
adam@princeton.edu
"There's a border to somewhere waiting, and a tank full of time." - J. Steinman
- let's call it a spellcraft Brandon J. Rickman
- let's call it a spellcraft Travis Casey
- let's call it a spellcraft James Wilson
- let's call it a spellcraft Travis Casey
- let's call it a spellcraft Niklas Elmqvist
- let's call it a spellcraft Koster, Raph
- let's call it a spellcraft Adam J. Thornton
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- let's call it a spellcraft Travis Casey
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- let's call it a spellcraft Niklas Elmqvist
- let's call it a spellcraft Adam Wiggins
- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- let's call it a spellcraft quzah [sotfhome]
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- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
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- let's call it a spellcraft Oliver Jowett
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- let's call it a spellcraft Travis Casey
- let's call it a spellcraft quzah [sotfhome]
- let's call it a spellcraft Vadim Tkachenko
- spell design systems Travis Casey
- [CUSTOM] ScryMUD Source release 1.6.0 Ben Greear
- Spellchecking Richard Woolcock
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- Legend's speech system and moods quzah [sotfhome]
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- Metroworks JIT for Linux J C Lawrence
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- FPL: Another embeddable bytecoded scripting language J C Lawrence
- Game Design Issues (Was: let's call it a spel Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- let's call it a spellcraft Andy Cink
- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- let's call it a spellcraft Adam J. Thornton
- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- let's call it a spellcraft Vadim Tkachenko
- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- let's call it a spellcraft James Wilson
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- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- let's call it a spellcraft Caliban Tiresias Darklock
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- let's call it a spellcraft Vadim Tkachenko
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Jon A. Lambert
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Kylotan
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Adam Wiggins
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) J C Lawrence
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Adam Wiggins
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Adam J. Thornton
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- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Koster, Raph
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- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Koster, Raph
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) Jon Leonard
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- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) Nathan F Yospe
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- After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD) Travis Casey
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- [MUD-Dev] apocalypse@pipeline.com
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- Autogenerated room descriptions Nathan F Yospe
- Autogenerated room descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Autogenerated room descriptions S. Patrick Gallaty
- [CUSTOM] ScryMUD is opening for Beta on Oct 1! Ben Greear
- A little help Dale Hoffman
- A little help Robert Woods
- A little help Ling
- A little help Marc Bowden
- A little help Ling
- A little help Richard Woolcock
- A little help Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- A little help Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- A little help T. Alexander Popiel
- A little help chris@realm.zfn.uni-bremen.de
- A little help Marc Bowden
- A little help Koster, Raph
- A little help Koster, Raph
- Mud adverts, was: ScryMUD is opening for Beta on Oct 1! Richard Woolcock
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Adam Wiggins
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) James Wilson
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Adam Wiggins
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation (Was Room descriptions) Koster, Raph
- UO lawsuit (fwd) Adam Wiggins
- UO lawsuit (fwd) Koster, Raph
- Unix is a mud (Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?) J C Lawrence
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Ben Greear
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Bruce Mitchener
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Marc Bowden
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Chris Gray
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Ben Greear
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. James Wilson
- Telnet Echo OFF/ON commands and other thingies.. Chris Gray