June 1998
- Playerkilling website Koster, Raph
- Playerkilling website John Bertoglio
- Playerkilling website Koster, Raph
- Playerkilling website J C Lawrence
- Playerkilling website J C Lawrence
- (fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- (fwd) Multiple currencies Matt Chatterley
- Exploring the guild phenomena J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Mike Sellers
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Richard Woolcock
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies T. Alexander Popiel
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Administrative Meddling Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Meddling Mike Sellers
- Administrative Meddling Matthew R. Sheahan
- Administrative Meddling Mike Sellers
- Administrative Meddling Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Meddling Mike Sellers
- Administrative Meddling Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Meddling J C Lawrence
- Administrative Meddling J C Lawrence
- OT: ICQ hacks and exploits J C Lawrence
- OT: ICQ hacks and exploits Mike Sellers
- OT: ICQ hacks and exploits J C Lawrence
- META: membership list J C Lawrence
- META: Archives. Ling
- META: Archives. Koster, Raph
- Levelless MUDs Holly Sommer
- Levelless MUDs Jon Leonard
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs John Bertoglio
- Levelless MUDs Koster, Raph
- Levelless MUDs J C Lawrence
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Matt Chatterley
- Levelless MUDs J C Lawrence
- Levelless MUDs Holly Sommer
- Levelless MUDs J C Lawrence
- Levelless MUDs Ben Greear
- Levelless MUDs Travis S. Casey
- Levelless MUDs Ling
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Travis S. Casey
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Matt Chatterley
- Levelless MUDs Holly Sommer
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Levelless MUDs Jon A. Lambert
- Levelless MUDs Matt Chatterley
- Levelless MUDs jacob langthorn
- Levelless MUDs Holly Sommer
- Levelless MUDs Nathan F Yospe
- Levelless MUDs Koster, Raph
- Levelless MUDs Richard Woolcock
- Levelless MUDs Katrina McClelan
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs D. B. Brown
- Levelless MUDs Matt Chatterley
- Levelless MUDs Larry Homer
- Levelless MUDs Richard Woolcock
- META: Erroneous bounce messages. J C Lawrence
- The lessons of Habitat's Dr Death repeated? J C Lawrence
- The lessons of Habitat's Dr Death repeated? Jon A. Lambert
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Elis Pomales
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Koster, Raph
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Greg Munt
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Matt Chatterley
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. J C Lawrence
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jo Dillon
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jon A. Lambert
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jo Dillon
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Bruce Mitchener
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Robert Woods
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Adam Wiggins
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Holly Sommer
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Richard Woolcock
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jo Dillon
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Matt Chatterley
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. J C Lawrence
- MUDZilla -- commercial server base J C Lawrence
- MUDZilla -- commercial server base John Bertoglio
- MUDZilla -- commercial server base J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Greg Munt
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Mike Sellers
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Richard Woolcock
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Mike Sellers
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Richard Woolcock
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Greg Munt
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Holly Sommer
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Richard Woolcock
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Andrew C.M. McClintock
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Niklas Elmqvist
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Adam Wiggins
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? francois@toubol.com
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Chris Gray
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Nathan F Yospe
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Travis S. Casey
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? T. Alexander Popiel
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Bruce Mitchener
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Chris Gray
- Mud websites Greg Munt
- Mud websites Robert Woods
- Mud websites Koster, Raph
- Mud websites Matt Chatterley
- Mud websites Koster, Raph
- Mud websites J C Lawrence
- Mud websites John Bertoglio
- Mud websites Adam Wiggins
- Mud websites Holly Sommer
- Mud websites Matt Chatterley
- Mud websites Travis S. Casey
- Mud websites Matt Chatterley
- Mud websites Travis S. Casey
- Mud websites Vadim Tkachenko
- mud websites Scatter
- mud websites Oliver Jowett
- mud websites Scatter
- mud websites Oliver Jowett
- mud websites J C Lawrence
- mud websites Scatter
- mud websites J C Lawrence
- mud websites Scatter
- Mud websites Chris Gray
- Mud websites J C Lawrence
- Mud websites Matt Chatterley
- Mud websites J C Lawrence
- Mud websites Chris Gray
- Mud websites Matt Chatterley
- Mud websites Chris Gray
- LDAP server as ... Vadim Tkachenko
- LDAP server as ... J C Lawrence
- Nested Coordinate spaces. Elis Pomales
- Nested Coordinate spaces. J C Lawrence
- Nested Coordinate spaces. Nathan F Yospe
- Nested Coordinate spaces. Elis Pomales
- Nested Coordinate spaces. Michael Hohensee
- Nested Coordinate spaces. J C Lawrence
- Telepathy Rules Lawrence W. Homer
- Off topic! But please help Marian Griffith
- Off topic! But please help John Bertoglio
- Off topic! But please help Jon A. Lambert
- Off topic! But please help John Bertoglio
- Off topic! But please help Holly Sommer
- META: Quoting, again. J C Lawrence
- Re:Telepathy Rules Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:Telepathy Rules Matt Chatterley
- Databases: was skill system jacob langthorn
- Databases: was skill system Mike Sellers
- Databases: was skill system John Bertoglio
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system T. Alexander Popiel
- Databases: was skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system John Bertoglio
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system Adam J. Thornton
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Databases: was skill system jacob langthorn
- Databases: was skill system ##Make Nylander
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system T. Alexander Popiel
- Mud-time vs real-time (was skill system) Mike Sellers
- Mud-time vs real-time (was skill system) T. Alexander Popiel
- Mud-time vs real-time (was skill system) Richard Woolcock
- Mud-time vs real-time (was skill system) Katrina McClelan
- darkness/visibility Oliver Jowett
- darkness/visibility Chris Gray
- darkness/visibility Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- darkness/visibility Travis S. Casey
- darkness/visibility Dr. Cat
- darkness/visibility Benjamin D. Wiechel
- darkness/visibility Andrew C.M. McClintock
- darkness/visibility Adam Wiggins
- darkness/visibility oliver@jowett.manawatu.planet.co.nz
- darkness/visibility Richard Woolcock
- darkness/visibility T. Alexander Popiel
- darkness/visibility J C Lawrence
- darkness/visibility Chris Gray
- darkness/visibility Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- darkness/visibility Adam Wiggins
- darkness/visibility Vadim Tkachenko
- darkness/visibility Holly Sommer
- darkness/visibility Benjamin D. Wiechel
- darkness/visibility Richard Woolcock
- darkness/visibility Chris Gray
- darkness/visibility Ben Greear
- darkness/visibility Katrina McClelan
- darkness/visibility J C Lawrence
- darkness/visibility Chris Gray
- darkness/visibility J C Lawrence
- darkness/visibility Travis S. Casey
- darkness/visibility J C Lawrence
- darkness/visibility Travis S. Casey
- darkness/visibility J C Lawrence
- darkness/visibility Travis S. Casey
- darkness/visibility Chris Gray
- Off topic! ... J C Lawrence
- Mailing List Archives Elis Pomales
- Mailing List Archives J C Lawrence
- [Fwd: Temporality and user actions in MUDs] Richard Woolcock
- PC 99 standard In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Mike Sellers
- PC 99 standard In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jo Dillon
- PC 99 standard In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Richard Woolcock
- Away on a trip Bryce
- META: The web is a live again! J C Lawrence
- Away on a trip Bryce
- Technical C/C++ coding question Ben Greear
- Technical C/C++ coding question Katrina McClelan
- Technical C/C++ coding question J C Lawrence
- Technical C/C++ coding question Jon Leonard
- Technical C/C++ coding question Katrina McClelan
- Technical C/C++ coding question Jon Leonard
- Technical C/C++ coding question Katrina McClelan
- Technical C/C++ coding question Ben Greear
- Technical C/C++ coding question Shawn Halpenny
- Technical C/C++ coding question Shawn Halpenny
- Technical C/C++ coding question J C Lawrence
- Technical C/C++ coding question Finn Arne Gangstad
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mu Jon A. Lambert
- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) Dan Shiovitz
- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) Richard Woolcock
- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) Ben Greear
- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) Katrina McClelan
- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) Richard Woolcock
- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) Katrina McClelan
- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) J C Lawrence
- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) Katrina McClelan
- stuff that makes me leave Richard Woolcock
- stuff that makes me leave Mike Sellers
- stuff that makes me leave Robert Woods
- stuff that makes me leave Matt Chatterley
- (fwd) Temporality and user actions in MUDs J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification Shawn Halpenny
- OT: Announcement s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- OT: Announcement Nathan F Yospe
- OT: Announcement Chris Gray
- OT: Announcement s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- OT: Announcement Chris Gray
- OT: Announcement s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Analysis and specification Shawn Halpenny
- Analysis and specification Ben Greear
- The great crusade.... J C Lawrence
- The great crusade.... Koster, Raph
- The great crusade.... Jon A. Lambert
- The great crusade.... J C Lawrence
- The great crusade.... Mike Sellers
- The great crusade.... brandon
- The great crusade.... Mike Sellers
- The great crusade.... J C Lawrence
- The great crusade.... Koster, Raph
- The great crusade.... S. Patrick Gallaty
- The great crusade.... J C Lawrence
- The great crusade.... J C Lawrence
- User Input Parser, was darkness/visibility Richard Woolcock
- what's fun? Mike Sellers
- what's fun? J C Lawrence
- what's fun? Richard Bartle
- what's fun? J C Lawrence
- what's fun? Richard Bartle
- Is worse better? J C Lawrence
- Is worse better? Katrina McClelan
- Is worse better? Jon A. Lambert
- Is worse better? Ben Greear
- Is worse better? Katrina McClelan
- Is worse better? Vadim Tkachenko
- Mozilla: unity of interface J C Lawrence
- Mozilla: unity of interface John Bertoglio
- OT:Is worse better? Nathan F Yospe
- OT:Is worse better? Jon A. Lambert
- [Fwd: Warfare on retromud.org 3000] Richard Woolcock
- [Fwd: Warfare on retromud.org 3000] Chris Gray
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words o Jon A. Lambert
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words o s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- ADMIN: OS Wars J C Lawrence
- MySQL scalability J C Lawrence
- Prescience Rules? [Previously submitted under wrong thread :( ] Larry Homer
- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulleti Matt Chatterley
- Prescience Rules? Joel Kelso
- OT: Ack! Adam Wiggins
- Natural Language Parsing (Was: darkness/visibility) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Natural Language Parsing (Was: darkness/visibility) Adam J. Thornton
- bytecode results Chris Gray
- Prescience Rules? Richard Woolcock
- Prescience Rules? Vadim Tkachenko
- Prescience Rules? Richard Woolcock
- Prescience Rules? Nathan F Yospe
- Biting the hand that feeds you J C Lawrence
- RI Adventure Contest (fwd) Holly Sommer
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Dan Shiovitz
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Mike Sellers
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun John Bertoglio
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Mike Sellers
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Maddy
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Dr. Cat
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Mike Sellers
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Mike Sellers
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Mike Sellers
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Mike Sellers
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Adam Wiggins
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Dr. Cat
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Spangler, Jason
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Joel Kelso
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Dr. Cat
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Holly Sommer
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Maddy
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Dr. Cat
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Mike Sellers
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Dr. Cat
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matthew R. Sheahan
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Travis S. Casey
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Travis Casey
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Robert Woods
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matthew R. Sheahan
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun CJones@aagis.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Nathan F Yospe
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Till Eulenspiegel
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Mike Sellers
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Nathan F Yospe
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Mike Sellers
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Cat [SMTP:cat@bga.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 26, 1998 4:31 PM
> To: mud-dev@kanga.nu
> Cc: pixel@bga.com
> Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun
>
Whee, I didn't expect to get quite so many lengthy replies. Guess I'll
see about spending a chunk of time answering...
> Raph Koster wrote:
> > I think a true roleplaying game can survive and thrive--as long as
> it is
> > small. But to grow beyond a very elite audience, it will have to
> accept
> > the fact that it will need to direct players very firmly along
> > predetermined ethical lines, it will have to shoulder much of the
> burden
> > of organization on either the code or admin side, and it will have
> to
> > sacrifice that sense of complete freedom. A large-scale pure
> roleplay
> > game would basically have to be a fascist state. :(
>
> I feel like the question of how these issues play out in an
> environment
> with no combat coded into the system is glossed over or ignored on
> this
> list.
>
As I said before, "to grow beyond a very elite audience, it will need to
direct players very firmly along predetermined ethical lines." Leaving
combat out is exactly that. It is "shouldering the burden of
organization on the code side" to be exact. And it is, yes, a sacrifice
of freedom of action for the player.
> There was some earlier mention of the notion that in games without
> combat, verbal harrassment, banishing from certain areas in response,
> etc. serve as the functional equivalent of combat. So I presume it's
> implied that the situation and the way it plays out are "pretty much
> the
> same" in that context.
> I couldn't disagree more.
>
I am one of the people who has made that statement. They are all forms
of aggression. They differ in degree, in nature, in details, sure. But
they are nonetheless forms of aggression. And If you code away the one,
then you are differentiating by degree, nature, and details, but not, to
my mind, addressing the root issue of "ways to handle aggression."
> To me, that's kind of like waving a hand and saying "Those things over
>
> there? Oh they're all pretty much the same thing, they're all just
> four-wheeled motorized vehicles." That generalization might be a
> sufficient level of detail if all you need to know is "what could get
> me
> across town right now". But if you're asking "which should I pick to
> compete in a race" or "which should I use to move all my furniture to
> a
> new house", then the differences between the members of that class
> actually ARE highly significant and varied.
>
I don't dispute this at all.
> I think that the difficulties of accomplishing the kinds of goals
> mentioned are less in the non-combat games.
>
Naturally, you've left out a part of human interaction that, while we
deplore it, is (judging from human history) a significant part of our
makeup. You've reduced the problem set.
> I agree that people are not totally ready for
> self-governance anywhere, including in the real world. But to me that
>
> says maybe three things, none of them bad. 1) So a game like that
> would
> be about LEARNING to do that better, rather than coming in and doing
> something everybody knows how to do great from day one. 2) Since it's
>
> needed in the real world, there is even more value in creating an
> online
> space that can help people learn it. 3) If a small minority of people
>
> have good understanding, skills and/or motivation regarding the
> effective
> governance of the community, it just means that you'll end up with
> more
> hierarchal sorts of governments, rather than flatter models - just
> like
> the vast majority of forms of government tried in the real world.
>
I strongly agree with all of the above. In fact, I'd argue that #1
suggests we ought to be tackling the issues in an environment that
supports combat. :)
> I spent last night witnessing & participating in the defense of
> Furcadia's largest-yet player founded community, Sanctuary, against a
> fellow who set out to deliberately disrupt it. I deliberately avoided
>
> using a single iota of the power or knowledge available to me as a
> sysop,
> I wanted the players to continue learning how to deal with problems
> like
> this on their own. And it gave me a chance to see how effective they
> could be. I felt like I got a year's worth of education in the
> development of online communities in one night. Were I an academic
> type,
> I could probably write a whole sociology or anthropology thesis on all
>
> the nuances of interaction that I saw coming into play.
>
It is indeed wonderful to see this happen. I would be very curious to
hear what methods were used by the guy who was disrupting it, and what
methods were used by the community to defend itself, given the absence
of direct violence. What forms did the aggresion take?
> Anyway, overall the level of unity, coordination, and effectiveness of
>
> the entire group were very impressive, heartening, and surprisingly
> effective. This kind of stuff can be made to work. When I have more
> of
> the planned support features in the server, it'll be even easier for
> them
> to do, and work even better.
>
I too believe they can be made to work; that belief is part of why I do
what I do. I just don't think that we are there yet. I don't think the
field as a whole quite has an idea of what support features are needed,
particularly in a full environment as opposed to one which leaves out
aspects of behavior.
> I do think it's interesting to note that the founder & leader of
> Sanctuary is a woman who runs a day care center. There's a lot of
> carryover of those skills and experience to the work she chooses to do
> on
> Furcadia - particularly with our especially young demographics. It
> also
> suggests another point in favor of the theory that non-violent muds
> have
> a better chance at effective self governance...
>
I wouldn't call your average day care attendee "self-governing." :) In
fact, I'd also call your average day care a highly restrictive
enviroment in which you are allowed to play freely in a very very
limited playspace, without access to numerous freedoms. Of course, in a
day care we are talking about children (though I also believe that
children deserve more credit than they are usually given for their
ability to analyze and evaluate). In any case, I agree that many of the
skills are very similar.
> I'll offer the
> opinion here that the more combat-oriented games are inherently going
> to
> attract higher concentrations of the types of people that are the
> LEAST
> conducive to developing effective self-government.
>
Right. Just like the real world. :)
> Whereas a less
> combat-oriented game has a better chance to attract a player base that
> is
> more representative of the average human being, rather than the most
> ungovernable extremes.
>
I think we are in opposition here. I feel that the "sandbox" is not
actually the environment representative of the average human being. Our
"safe areas" in the real world are ones that we struggled quite hard
throughout history to set aside in a generally hostile environment. For
that matter, our safe areas aren't all that safe either.
> Or, depending on the style and focus of the game,
> in some cases you could get a playership that is MORE conducive to
> good
> self-government than a random samplying of average human beings would
> be.
>
Naturally.
> That's what we're shooting for with Furcadia, by the way. :X)
>
I guess that what I'd wonder is, do we feel that the models for
self-governance that we arrive at from such a self-selected, highly
civilized, non-violent group will hold up when applied to anything else
than said elite? My gut feeling says "no," and that if we want to really
advance the state of the art with our work, then we need to address the
full problem, not the subset only. (Not saying that tackling the
subset isn't a valuable endeavor--it is, of course, and as you know, I
have the utmost respect for you and you work, Dr Cat).
> The question of scale that Raph mentions is a seperate issue, by the
> way.
>
Yes, it is, though I think that the scalability of the community depends
a great deal on the makeup of the playerbase as discussed above.
> Communities inherently can only scale to certain sizes while
> maintaining certain levels of cohesiveness. For each level of
> cohesiveness, there's a certain size-range that's about the maximum
> you
> can hope for while still maintaining it. The important thing is to
> have
> a structure and setting that naturally allows people to keep breaking
> off
> into sub-communities and sub-sub-communities as the population keeps
> growing. If you do that, you can still have very high cohesiveness on
>
> local levels, hopefully overlayed with a less strong but still
> positive
> feeling of "nationalism" towards the game as a whole. Which is useful
> for
> branding purposes for those few of us doing this commercially. :X)
>
A very well-known factor in community building and governance. Athenians
discussed the optimum size for a democracy. And one of the interesting
fallacies behind the whole idea of the Internet as permitting vast
electronic democracies is that these constraints of awareness of "local
issues" and engagement with "local community" do not go away. Ten
million Netters voting is not going to be any more informed a voting
populace than a million TV voters...
> If you have too much homogeneity in your system, and no natural sorts
> of
> dividing mechanisms and seed points to let groups gather,
> differentiate
> themselves, and then split off and isolate themselves to whatever
> extent
> they desire, then yes, there will be a huge problem with maintaining
> the
> character of the place once you get a huge number of players in.
>
Yep. Of course, I'd argue that leaving out combat is a sure way to get
said homogeneity. :)
On to the next email...
-Raph - WIRED: Kilers have more fun Dr. Cat
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Joel Kelso
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Maddy
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Adam Wiggins
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Maddy
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun CJones@aagis.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Scatter
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Richard Woolcock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Ling
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
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- Multi-Server games MH
- Multi-Server games Jo Dillon
- Multi-Server games MH
- Multi-Server games J C Lawrence
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- Multi-Server games Ben Greear
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