June 1998
- Playerkilling website Koster, Raph
- Playerkilling website John Bertoglio
- Playerkilling website Koster, Raph
- Playerkilling website J C Lawrence
- Playerkilling website J C Lawrence
- (fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- (fwd) Multiple currencies Matt Chatterley
- Exploring the guild phenomena J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Mike Sellers
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Richard Woolcock
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies T. Alexander Popiel
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Administrative Meddling Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Meddling Mike Sellers
- Administrative Meddling Matthew R. Sheahan
- Administrative Meddling Mike Sellers
- Administrative Meddling Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Meddling Mike Sellers
- Administrative Meddling Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Meddling J C Lawrence
- Administrative Meddling J C Lawrence
- OT: ICQ hacks and exploits J C Lawrence
- OT: ICQ hacks and exploits Mike Sellers
- OT: ICQ hacks and exploits J C Lawrence
- META: membership list J C Lawrence
- META: Archives. Ling
- META: Archives. Koster, Raph
- Levelless MUDs Holly Sommer
- Levelless MUDs Jon Leonard
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs John Bertoglio
- Levelless MUDs Koster, Raph
- Levelless MUDs J C Lawrence
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Matt Chatterley
- Levelless MUDs J C Lawrence
- Levelless MUDs Holly Sommer
- Levelless MUDs J C Lawrence
- Levelless MUDs Ben Greear
- Levelless MUDs Travis S. Casey
- Levelless MUDs Ling
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Travis S. Casey
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Matt Chatterley
- Levelless MUDs Holly Sommer
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Levelless MUDs Jon A. Lambert
- Levelless MUDs Matt Chatterley
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On 15-Jun-98 Holly Sommer wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Matt Chatterley wrote:
>
>> I suppose the key things to look at are *exactly* what is influenced by
>> levels, and how else you might handle it. Swap in other things which make
>> more 'sense' (for instance, apply a strength stat to damage instead of
>> level, and so forth).
>
> After going over it with some who have played in this environment, and
> others who have written code for it, the following things have been
> highlighted:
>
> o We'll have to move from a %based skill proficiency system, to one
> which has no artificial ceiling (100% is max... hey, is anyone
> perfect at ANYTHING?) where you have skill bonuses and penalties
> (+8 on pick lock) and that each skill has a counterskill (working
> on a -5 difficulty lock, for a net effectiveness of +3) while
> throwing in some luck (so roll a 3d6 and get <= net effectiveness,
> where 18 is always a fail, and 3 is always a win)
This is one of those 'whatever works for you' things. We use ranges of 1-1000
for skills, with associated difficulties, and some logarithmic formulae for
'effectiveness', and also for 'training' and 'decay' of skills.
> o Remove the level restrictions on eq. This is what the builders
> objected to the most (see below). I am of the mindset that levels
> could still be left in place for deciding relative "power" of the
> eq (and the goodies/bonuses/penalties/etc. which go along with
> the more desirable eq), but that if player characters no longer have
> player levels, then there is no level check for using eq: you
> found it, you can use it.
Yup. Or, transpose the level restrictions. Set a rough skill level for
effective use of the kit. 'This is a skill level 30 sword.' - You can use it at
any skill level, but the further below 30 skill you are, the bigger a penalty
you get with it (conversely, this might increase your skill faster or slower,
depending on your view of skill increases, and any other factors you want to
drop in).
> o Other means of identifying the experienced bravados from the
> well-equipped newbie. Obviously, this is in the skill bonuses/penalties
> realm. You can outfit Bubba the Well-Travelled Adventurer and
> Boffo the Brand New Player the same, but Bubba knows the game better,
> and has spent time LEARNING things, which will be to his advantage,
> should he and Boffo ever be in the arena together against one another.
Yeah. Bubba would mop up with Boffo (assuming that new players are relatively
unskilled). If they both had some training, it might be far closer. The main
way to gain physical power in my game is to run about, learn spells, learn
skills, and practise them, as well as accumulating or making good kit (the
definition of good varies - it may not be 'high damage' but 'long lifetime' ie
kit which is reasonably effective but very sturdy). You can tone up physically
too, but leaving out magical aid, you'll never be /phenomenonally/ better off
stat-wise.
> o Give players who wish to not killkillkill something else to do, which
> represents well-spent time. Player houses, quests, let them run a
> city, RP, etc.
Aye. This brings the 'alternative rewards and goals' thing into play.
> Essentially, levels are being used for two things:
> 1. Determining when you can learn a skill
> 2. Determining when you can use eq
Right. Once you identify this, you can phase it out, making levels redundant.
Note that if you have designers, coders or staffers highly opposed to dropping
levels, you can prove it will work by showing their redundancy.
> We have considered using skilltrees - sets of prerequisites - for skills.
> This removes the artificialness of "sorry, you can't learn dodge, it's a
> level 20 skill in THIS game, and you're only level 3), and of using
> rune-based magic, so that you don't have situations where "fireball is
> just a level 30 version of magic missile).
Very neat, and a good approach. Also, consider allowing attempts to /learn/
spells whenever (spell being any sort of applied skill), but vary successful
learning and applicatoin (as well as effectiveness) on skills.
If you luck out with very little skill, you can learn
doublebackfliptwistingdeathnogginchop from Master Ping, but, you're very
unskilled and 99/100 times that you try to apply it, you screw up and land on
your backside.
> It would also be easy and popular with players to promote our eq as
> "having no level restrictions! You find it, you use it!"
Yup. It seems to be a big selling point. 'Equipment saved!' too. ;)
> For some reason, however, if you use precise language and say "levels are
> being removed," those who are accustomed to them absolutely flip out.
> It's very very strange. I guess people assume that eq which would have
> been known as "level 50 eq" will just be lying around the newbie area,
> and will seriously unbalance the game. If that IS the case, it's not so
> much a problem of system design, as it is of poor AREA (builder) design.
Yes; because 'levels are being removed' is a very incomplete statement - better
to say 'levels are being replaced by a new, better mechanism'. People will jump
on you very fast in this business. :)
>> Converting from level based to levelless is certainly an interesting
>> notion - what are your initial thoughts on how to approach it?
>
> Well, my initial thoughts were "toss it out on the table and let people
> (the staff) pick at it, and make suggestions on how to possibly make a
> transition. I never envisioned the mayhem that a mere suggestion would cause.
Heh. Should have warned you, really. :P
>> How do you expect the playerbase to react?
>
> If it's anything at all like the staff members I've merely MENTIONED this
> to, as a possible *consideration* - with great bouts of gnashing of
> teeth, and with feelings of betrayal. And that's without even speculating
> aloud, what a change like removing levels would entail. Bleah.
Ayup. Better not to tell them. Do your work in the background, then swap it in.
If they don't like it, they can leave. At least, thats my philosophy.
> We decided it best to just go ahead and start work on an experimental
> server, and leave everyone else out of it while we work on it. Too much
> strife, and too many cooks with their fingers in the pot, if we involve
> player and builder feedback during the construction phase. It'll be a
> coder's endeavor, initially.
The best way to develop. :) We even use a 'developmental' mud although we
aren't open - it's for back-end (lib/server) code changes, which are moved onto
the 'creational' mud every once in a while (when complete and tested). The
latter mud is used by area creators for higher level work.
- --
-Matt Chatterley
http://user.itl.net/~neddy/
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.." -John Lennon (Imagine)
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- Levelless MUDs jacob langthorn
- Levelless MUDs Holly Sommer
- Levelless MUDs Nathan F Yospe
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- Levelless MUDs Katrina McClelan
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs D. B. Brown
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- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Greg Munt
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Matt Chatterley
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. J C Lawrence
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jo Dillon
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jon A. Lambert
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jo Dillon
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Bruce Mitchener
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Robert Woods
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Adam Wiggins
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- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
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- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Richard Woolcock
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- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? J C Lawrence
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- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Travis S. Casey
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? T. Alexander Popiel
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- Mud websites Greg Munt
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- Telepathy Rules Lawrence W. Homer
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- Off topic! But please help John Bertoglio
- Off topic! But please help Holly Sommer
- META: Quoting, again. J C Lawrence
- Re:Telepathy Rules Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:Telepathy Rules Matt Chatterley
- Databases: was skill system jacob langthorn
- Databases: was skill system Mike Sellers
- Databases: was skill system John Bertoglio
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system T. Alexander Popiel
- Databases: was skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
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- Databases: was skill system John Bertoglio
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system Adam J. Thornton
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
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- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
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- Databases: was skill system jacob langthorn
- Databases: was skill system ##Make Nylander
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
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- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
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- Databases: was skill system T. Alexander Popiel
- Mud-time vs real-time (was skill system) Mike Sellers
- Mud-time vs real-time (was skill system) T. Alexander Popiel
- Mud-time vs real-time (was skill system) Richard Woolcock
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- darkness/visibility Oliver Jowett
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Scatter
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Richard Woolcock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Richard Woolcock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Ling
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: One brave soul's UO diary. J C Lawrence
- Tron meets MUD meets the arcades. Detonation expected. J C Lawrence
- WWW/INN/news systems (Was: mud websites) Petri Virkkula
- Prescience Rules? Scatter
- Suggested theme, was WIRED: Kilers have more fun Richard Woolcock
- Suggested theme, was WIRED: Kilers have more fun Dan Shiovitz
- mud-related event: Dr. K... Brandon J. Rickman
- Suggested theme, was WIRED: Kilers have more fun Chris Gray
- Multi-Server games Ben Greear
- Multi-Server games Jo Dillon
- Multi-Server games MH
- Multi-Server games Jo Dillon
- Multi-Server games MH
- Multi-Server games J C Lawrence
- Multi-Server games Vadim Tkachenko
- Multi-Server games Ben Greear
- Multi-Server games Vadim Tkachenko
- Multi-Server games Koster, Raph
- ScryMUD: Source release, version 1.4 Ben Greear
- (fwd) Dantom's Universal Network Game (DUNG) Nathan Fenenga Yospe
- I/O Event Handling Under Linux by Richard Gooch J C Lawrence
- I/O Event Handling Under Linux by Richard Gooch s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Thread implementations... J C Lawrence
- Suggested theme Richard Woolcock
- Suggested theme Richard Woolcock
- Suggested theme Chris Gray
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words o J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words o Jon A. Lambert
- Quotes from Marcus Ranum J C Lawrence
- Quotes from Marcus Ranum Nathan F Yospe
- Quotes from Marcus Ranum Chris Gray
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Chris Gray
- the why of online worlds Mike Sellers
- the why of online worlds Ben Greear
- A variation on persistent store techniques with notes on distributed processing support J C Lawrence
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? J C Lawrence
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Dr. Cat
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Ling
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Travis S. Casey
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? J C Lawrence
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Travis S. Casey
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Vadim Tkachenko
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Chris Gray
- RP definitional structure J C Lawrence
- Combat intelligence J C Lawrence
- Combat intelligence J C Lawrence
- Combat intelligence Ling
- Combat intelligence Niklas Elmqvist
- the why of online worlds. cat
- Rules of the game: How Long Till You Die J C Lawrence
- Rules of the Game: You don't always live twice Or... Take my life, Please J C Lawrence
- roleplaying farmers? Mike L Kesl
- roleplaying farmers? J C Lawrence
- Sugarscape: A-Life variation with economic interests J C Lawrence
- Embedded languages was Databases: was skill system Chris Gray
- Embedded languages was Databases: was skill system Vadim Tkachenko