June 1998
- Playerkilling website Koster, Raph
- Playerkilling website John Bertoglio
- Playerkilling website Koster, Raph
- Playerkilling website J C Lawrence
- Playerkilling website J C Lawrence
- (fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- (fwd) Multiple currencies Matt Chatterley
- Exploring the guild phenomena J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Mike Sellers
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies Richard Woolcock
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies T. Alexander Popiel
- Re:(fwd) Multiple currencies J C Lawrence
- Administrative Meddling Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Meddling Mike Sellers
- Administrative Meddling Matthew R. Sheahan
- Administrative Meddling Mike Sellers
- Administrative Meddling Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Meddling Mike Sellers
- Administrative Meddling Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Meddling J C Lawrence
- Administrative Meddling J C Lawrence
- OT: ICQ hacks and exploits J C Lawrence
- OT: ICQ hacks and exploits Mike Sellers
- OT: ICQ hacks and exploits J C Lawrence
- META: membership list J C Lawrence
- META: Archives. Ling
- META: Archives. Koster, Raph
- Levelless MUDs Holly Sommer
- Levelless MUDs Jon Leonard
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs John Bertoglio
- Levelless MUDs Koster, Raph
- Levelless MUDs J C Lawrence
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Matt Chatterley
- Levelless MUDs J C Lawrence
On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:46:21 -0700 (PDT)
Adam Wiggins<adam@angel.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Holly Sommer wrote:
>> The notion of converting to levelless MUDding is floating around
>> the MUD I admin, and I am curious as to how this is done elsewhere
>> (since I personally have never set foot in a levelless MUD).
> Levelless muds are hard to come by in the GoP field. Skill-based
> muds which have levels that do almost nothing (except for providing
> players with easy-to-understand feedback) are much more common.
What is the definition of a "levelless MUD"?
Is is it a MUD in which there is no "level" stat reported to the
player? (Cool! Just re-write the SCORE code and you're done).
Is it a game in which there is no standardised (ie common use for
multiple areas) ccomputation which arrives at a value which is then
weighed against a preset scale in order to arrive at game decisions?
(some formulae in your game which gives you a number which you then
use to make game decisions? (ie hidden or implict as vs explit
levels).
Is it a game in which there are a great many such patterns of
computational comparison against preset scales, all different and
specific to particular activities? (ie your standard skill-web based
game, or any other game which purports to allow individually tailored
characters)
Much more simply: What is the definition and expression of
"advancement" in your game? Does your game even have a concept of
advancement? Does your game ___need___ a concept of advancement? (If
so, why?)
Consider: If the game has a concept of advancement, no matter how
covoluted, fractious, or multiplexed, then it implicitly has a concept
of "levels" even if its not explicitly stated. If A is more advanced
than B in some regard, then A is at a higher level than B. If there
are multiple scales and variously contradictory ways to be "more
advanced" (cf skill webs, species, races, etc), then the same pattern
still holds -- it just comes in Apple, Lime, Orange, Berry, Qumquat,
Quince and other flavours too! Players will observe this even if you
don't tell them -- thus creating their own implicit concept of levels.
Consider: If you game has a single (or other small number) of goals
(accumulate XP, be the biggest bad arse warrior, become King, get the
Egg, save the world, give birth to Tiamat's babies, whatever), and the
ability of characters to accomplish those goal(s) can vary over time,
then you implicitly have a concept of advancement in your game.
Different characters can now manipulate your game world to increase
their ability to achieve the game goal, and having done so, are more
"advanced" than those that have not.
Ultimate translation: There are no levelless games. There are only
games which hide their "level" characterisitics to a greater or lesser
degree.
"Levelless" is a misnomer in a literal sense. It does however
communicate a useful concept:
In a levelless game there is no single, explict or implicit,
statement of a character's standing in the scale of advancement for
the game. In a "levelled" game, there is a single statement which can
be used to gauge a character's standing in the scale of advancement
for the game.
Notice that the working definition says nothing about the game
providing the statement of level. It can be implicit or explicit. It
really doesn't matter. That's merely a question of transparency, not
function or game play characterisitics (usually).
> Right off the top of my head, the two completely level-less muds I'd
> check out would be YaMUD (if it's still around, it goes up and down)
> and, of course, Ultima Online.
Both of which actually use levels, they just relabel them and hide
them behind multiple reported statistics, and other wise obscure them.
However, because of this they apparency is that they are levelless and
genetalia waving exercises are less common or at least expressed
differently).
> As both a player and an admin I despise levels. I find it far
> easier to design, code, and play a game without such kludges. Be
> forewarned, however, that it makes game *balance* far more difficult
> to tune.
Sooth.
>> What metrics of progress are used to replace "levels"?
Rephrase: What metrics of progress are used to obfuscate "levels"?
If you start with that view, viewing the boundaries of the task
becomes simpler.
> I tend to think of it the other way around. They accept something
> as dull as a 'level' as a substitute for a more accurate
> representation of their character's abilities. Anyhow, if your mud
> is similar to most others, the real metric isn't levels anyhow -
> it's how many hitpoints you have, how many fireballs you can cast in
> a row, and how much +dam you are wearing.
To quote a good friend:
"A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment."
>> How do you handle things like spells, where caster vs. target
>> level is what determines effectiveness?
> Lots and lots of skills. Ie: Biffy's fireball at Bubba is a roll of
> Biffy's spellcasting skill, Biffy's fire-realm skill, Bubba's
> spellcraft knowledge skill, Bubba's dodge skill, Bubba's agility,
> Biffy's intelligence, Biffy's agility, and Bubba's resistance to
> fire. You can see already how this is more difficult to balance,
> due to so many more parameters. But IMO this makes the game more
> fun to work on (from an admin's point of view), and more fun to play
> (from a player's point of view).
There is a large minefield lurking under the covers here. Its
incredibly easy when dealing with a large number of factors to have
the final value effectively be an average of their values. The result
is that no single factor has a significant effect on the final result.
This spells doom, as it means that for Bubba to increase his
effectiveness with fireballs to any statistically noticable degree he
has to significantly alter the values of several of the factors before
the balance changes noticably.
The only effective solutiuon I've found to this is expensive: Set up a
whole bunch of nested loops, one each per factor, and permute. Plot
the results. See if the results really look the way you want them to.
Yes, you could probably do the same thing with Mathmatica or similar.
It doesn't vary the basic approach, just the expression.
> And, one might still refer to Bubba as being a "high-level player"
> if he's got a good fire resistance, a good dodge skill, a great
> spellcraft skill, etc. But it's much more than a single number now
> - Bubba might be terrible a dodging fireballs, but an excellent
> thief. He's still "high level", he's just not good at avoiding
> nasty fire spells.
<nod>
Appropriate use of a few moderately good skills can be far more
effective that bumbling use of a mix of extremely good and bad skills.
>> I'd like to hear legitimate pros and cons, not "oh, it's cool" or
>> "I hated it, it sucked."
> IMO systems based on more complex metrics (generally meaning
> skill-based) are about 1000% more fulfulling for both the creator
> and the player.
I generally view it as a question of flavour and thereby involvement.
> BTW - if it's back up, check the archives. This is has been a major
> topic for most of the list's existence. Search for "skill web"
> (probably from Nathan), "skill tree" (from Orion or myself), "mana"
> (JCL), "deity/god favor" (Vadim or myself), or "for a pen and paper
> game I designed" (Travis) :).
The archives are now back up, and the search supports are fully
enabled.
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw@null.net
(Contractor) Internet: coder@ibm.net
---------(*) Internet: claw@under.engr.sgi.com
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... - Levelless MUDs Holly Sommer
- Levelless MUDs J C Lawrence
- Levelless MUDs Ben Greear
- Levelless MUDs Travis S. Casey
- Levelless MUDs Ling
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- Levelless MUDs Travis S. Casey
- Levelless MUDs Adam Wiggins
- Levelless MUDs Matt Chatterley
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- Levelless MUDs Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Levelless MUDs Jon A. Lambert
- Levelless MUDs Matt Chatterley
- Levelless MUDs jacob langthorn
- Levelless MUDs Holly Sommer
- Levelless MUDs Nathan F Yospe
- Levelless MUDs Koster, Raph
- Levelless MUDs Richard Woolcock
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- Levelless MUDs D. B. Brown
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- META: Erroneous bounce messages. J C Lawrence
- The lessons of Habitat's Dr Death repeated? J C Lawrence
- The lessons of Habitat's Dr Death repeated? Jon A. Lambert
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Elis Pomales
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Koster, Raph
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Greg Munt
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Matt Chatterley
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. J C Lawrence
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jo Dillon
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jon A. Lambert
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jo Dillon
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Bruce Mitchener
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Robert Woods
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Adam Wiggins
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Holly Sommer
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Richard Woolcock
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jo Dillon
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Matt Chatterley
- In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. J C Lawrence
- MUDZilla -- commercial server base J C Lawrence
- MUDZilla -- commercial server base John Bertoglio
- MUDZilla -- commercial server base J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Greg Munt
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Mike Sellers
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Richard Woolcock
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Mike Sellers
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Richard Woolcock
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Greg Munt
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Holly Sommer
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Richard Woolcock
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Andrew C.M. McClintock
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Niklas Elmqvist
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Adam Wiggins
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? francois@toubol.com
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Chris Gray
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Nathan F Yospe
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Travis S. Casey
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? T. Alexander Popiel
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Bruce Mitchener
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mud development? Chris Gray
- Mud websites Greg Munt
- Mud websites Robert Woods
- Mud websites Koster, Raph
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- Mud websites Koster, Raph
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- Mud websites Vadim Tkachenko
- mud websites Scatter
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- mud websites Scatter
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- mud websites Scatter
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- mud websites Scatter
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- LDAP server as ... Vadim Tkachenko
- LDAP server as ... J C Lawrence
- Nested Coordinate spaces. Elis Pomales
- Nested Coordinate spaces. J C Lawrence
- Nested Coordinate spaces. Nathan F Yospe
- Nested Coordinate spaces. Elis Pomales
- Nested Coordinate spaces. Michael Hohensee
- Nested Coordinate spaces. J C Lawrence
- Telepathy Rules Lawrence W. Homer
- Off topic! But please help Marian Griffith
- Off topic! But please help John Bertoglio
- Off topic! But please help Jon A. Lambert
- Off topic! But please help John Bertoglio
- Off topic! But please help Holly Sommer
- META: Quoting, again. J C Lawrence
- Re:Telepathy Rules Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Re:Telepathy Rules Matt Chatterley
- Databases: was skill system jacob langthorn
- Databases: was skill system Mike Sellers
- Databases: was skill system John Bertoglio
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system T. Alexander Popiel
- Databases: was skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system John Bertoglio
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system Adam J. Thornton
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Databases: was skill system jacob langthorn
- Databases: was skill system ##Make Nylander
- Databases: was skill system Jon A. Lambert
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
- Databases: was skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
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- Databases: was skill system J C Lawrence
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- Databases: was skill system T. Alexander Popiel
- Mud-time vs real-time (was skill system) Mike Sellers
- Mud-time vs real-time (was skill system) T. Alexander Popiel
- Mud-time vs real-time (was skill system) Richard Woolcock
- Mud-time vs real-time (was skill system) Katrina McClelan
- darkness/visibility Oliver Jowett
- darkness/visibility Chris Gray
- darkness/visibility Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- darkness/visibility Travis S. Casey
- darkness/visibility Dr. Cat
- darkness/visibility Benjamin D. Wiechel
- darkness/visibility Andrew C.M. McClintock
- darkness/visibility Adam Wiggins
- darkness/visibility oliver@jowett.manawatu.planet.co.nz
- darkness/visibility Richard Woolcock
- darkness/visibility T. Alexander Popiel
- darkness/visibility J C Lawrence
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- darkness/visibility Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
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- darkness/visibility Vadim Tkachenko
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- darkness/visibility Katrina McClelan
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- darkness/visibility Travis S. Casey
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- Off topic! ... J C Lawrence
- Mailing List Archives Elis Pomales
- Mailing List Archives J C Lawrence
- [Fwd: Temporality and user actions in MUDs] Richard Woolcock
- PC 99 standard In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Mike Sellers
- PC 99 standard In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Jo Dillon
- PC 99 standard In game bulletin boards vs. Web based. Richard Woolcock
- Away on a trip Bryce
- META: The web is a live again! J C Lawrence
- Away on a trip Bryce
- Technical C/C++ coding question Ben Greear
- Technical C/C++ coding question Katrina McClelan
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- Technical C/C++ coding question Shawn Halpenny
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- Technical C/C++ coding question Finn Arne Gangstad
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words of mu Jon A. Lambert
- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) Dan Shiovitz
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- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) Katrina McClelan
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- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) Katrina McClelan
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- stuff that makes me leave (was In game bulletin...) Katrina McClelan
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- stuff that makes me leave Matt Chatterley
- (fwd) Temporality and user actions in MUDs J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification Shawn Halpenny
- OT: Announcement s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
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- Analysis and specification Shawn Halpenny
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- The great crusade.... J C Lawrence
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- Mozilla: unity of interface J C Lawrence
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- OT:Is worse better? Nathan F Yospe
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- [Fwd: Warfare on retromud.org 3000] Richard Woolcock
- [Fwd: Warfare on retromud.org 3000] Chris Gray
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- Prescience Rules? [Previously submitted under wrong thread :( ] Larry Homer
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- Natural Language Parsing (Was: darkness/visibility) Adam J. Thornton
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- Biting the hand that feeds you J C Lawrence
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matthew R. Sheahan
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matthew R. Sheahan
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun CJones@aagis.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Nathan F Yospe
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Till Eulenspiegel
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Mike Sellers
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Nathan F Yospe
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- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Mike Sellers
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Dr. Cat
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Joel Kelso
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Maddy
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Dan Shiovitz
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Richard Woolcock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Adam Wiggins
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Maddy
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun CJones@aagis.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Adam Wiggins
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Marian Griffith
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun S. Patrick Gallaty
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Koster, Raph
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Scatter
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Richard Woolcock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Richard Woolcock
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Ling
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Matt Chatterley
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Damion Schubert
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun J C Lawrence
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Jon A. Lambert
- WIRED: One brave soul's UO diary. J C Lawrence
- Tron meets MUD meets the arcades. Detonation expected. J C Lawrence
- WWW/INN/news systems (Was: mud websites) Petri Virkkula
- Prescience Rules? Scatter
- Suggested theme, was WIRED: Kilers have more fun Richard Woolcock
- Suggested theme, was WIRED: Kilers have more fun Dan Shiovitz
- mud-related event: Dr. K... Brandon J. Rickman
- Suggested theme, was WIRED: Kilers have more fun Chris Gray
- Multi-Server games Ben Greear
- Multi-Server games Jo Dillon
- Multi-Server games MH
- Multi-Server games Jo Dillon
- Multi-Server games MH
- Multi-Server games J C Lawrence
- Multi-Server games Vadim Tkachenko
- Multi-Server games Ben Greear
- Multi-Server games Vadim Tkachenko
- Multi-Server games Koster, Raph
- ScryMUD: Source release, version 1.4 Ben Greear
- (fwd) Dantom's Universal Network Game (DUNG) Nathan Fenenga Yospe
- I/O Event Handling Under Linux by Richard Gooch J C Lawrence
- I/O Event Handling Under Linux by Richard Gooch s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Thread implementations... J C Lawrence
- Suggested theme Richard Woolcock
- Suggested theme Richard Woolcock
- Suggested theme Chris Gray
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words o J C Lawrence
- Analysis and specification - the dirty words o Jon A. Lambert
- Quotes from Marcus Ranum J C Lawrence
- Quotes from Marcus Ranum Nathan F Yospe
- Quotes from Marcus Ranum Chris Gray
- WIRED: Kilers have more fun Chris Gray
- the why of online worlds Mike Sellers
- the why of online worlds Ben Greear
- A variation on persistent store techniques with notes on distributed processing support J C Lawrence
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? J C Lawrence
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Dr. Cat
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Ling
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Travis S. Casey
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? J C Lawrence
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Travis S. Casey
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Vadim Tkachenko
- You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD? Chris Gray
- RP definitional structure J C Lawrence
- Combat intelligence J C Lawrence
- Combat intelligence J C Lawrence
- Combat intelligence Ling
- Combat intelligence Niklas Elmqvist
- the why of online worlds. cat
- Rules of the game: How Long Till You Die J C Lawrence
- Rules of the Game: You don't always live twice Or... Take my life, Please J C Lawrence
- roleplaying farmers? Mike L Kesl
- roleplaying farmers? J C Lawrence
- Sugarscape: A-Life variation with economic interests J C Lawrence
- Embedded languages was Databases: was skill system Chris Gray
- Embedded languages was Databases: was skill system Vadim Tkachenko