May 1998
- OT: CGDC Adam Wiggins
- OT: CGDC Mike Sellers
- There can be.. only ONE! (fwd) Ling
- There can be.. only ONE! (fwd) Matt Chatterley
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Jon A. Lambert
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Chris Gray
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Adam Wiggins
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma J C Lawrence
- (fwd) AD: [custom graphical] whitestar Crossfi Jon A. Lambert
- LIST: The "MUD-DEV" MUD Development mailing list J C Lawrence
- Wired, UO, Mike Sellers
- Wired, UO, John Bertoglio
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: Dr. Cat
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: Koster, Raph
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: J C Lawrence
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: John Bertoglio
- OT: Supporting articles found for UOL play style Jon A. Lambert
- PK's: A solution? J C Lawrence
- Preview of Asheron's Call J C Lawrence
- Asheron's Call Interview with Toby Ragaini, Lead Designer, and Jon Grande, Product Planner. J C Lawrence
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Adam Wiggins
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Dan Shiovitz
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Adam Wiggins
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources J C Lawrence
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Koster, Raph
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources J C Lawrence
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources John Bertoglio
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources J C Lawrence
- Motivations for Creating Mud-Like Worllds and Servers | John Bertoglio
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail J C Lawrence
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail John Bertoglio
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail Matt Chatterley
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail J C Lawrence
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail J C Lawrence
- Character development [was ] Koster, Raph
- Motivations for Creating Mud-Like Worlds and Servers Holly Sommer
- META -- membership Jay Sax
- META -- membership Koster, Raph
- META -- membership J C Lawrence
- Motivations (was something else...) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Motivations (was something else...) Richard Woolcock
- client UI written in server's language (was Some thoughts...) Erik Ostrom
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma J C Lawrence
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Travis S. Casey
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma J C Lawrence
- META: Character of the list's membership J C Lawrence
- quickie CGDC report Mike Sellers
- quickie CGDC report Adam Wiggins
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately J C Lawrence
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately J C Lawrence
- Some essays I've written lately J C Lawrence
- Frandel 3D (fwd) Holly Sommer
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Raph Koster
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Koster, Raph
- MURKLE: Wot it is Dr. Cat
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Shawn Halpenny
- MURKLE: Wot it is Mike Sellers
- MURKLE: Wot it is Nathan F Yospe
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
On Fri, 15 May 1998 08:07:02 -0700
Mike Sellers<mike@bignetwork.com> wrote:
> At 01:13 PM 5/14/98 -0700, J C Lawrence wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 May 1998 17:54:27 -0700 J C
>> Lawrence<claw@under.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
>>> The largest failure of MUDs is that they have generally never, and
>>> never stably, been able to assemble large simultaneous
>>> populations. What is "large" in this context? I would start at
>>> 500 as still being on the verges of small.
>>
>>> Raph, Sellers: Can you provide context from UOL and M59 here?
> One difficulty here is the perennial disagreement of the definition
> of "MUD." Lots of muds or mud-like games get 500 or more
> simultaneous users. Gemstone and LambdaMOO have both done this or
> come close to it, and I'm sure there are lots of others.
<nod>
> OTOH, I'd say a "large" simultaneous population may start somewhere
> below 500 users, and mostly depends on the size and nature of the
> game. In M59, 100-150 people starts to feel pretty large (but not
> exactly metropolitan); in Everquest (if their world size estimates
> are accurate), this will be nothing.
Its a social dynamics question, or to rephrase into list parlance: How
high is the pressure in the pressure cooker, and how tightly are the
fruit flies packed? We have a small group in this list, of say 25
actively posting members (I haven't counted). Yes, the list has very
definitely evolved its own internal culture and expectations.
25 is smaller than 500.
However, the list is not a fair comparison in several ways, two of
which seem key:
1) The list exists against a background of Usenet and other mailing
lists. MUD populations typically don't. There is very little
__active__ cross-pollination between MUDs.
2) The list is persistant -- events, communication, etc are
timeless. They persist and can be reviewed, reacted to, and discussed
long after their inception. MUD events, even with fully persistant
worlds are not timeless. Bubba hits Boffo. Boffo gets hurt. 10
minutes later what of it? The most that is left is memories. (This
is yet another big reason I want time travel)
>> I would be interested in a genetic comparison here in particular.
>> What is the minimum population required to supply sufficient
>> genetic diversity to be considered "viable"? Yes, I know that this
>> is highly dependant on the range of genetic diversity in the
>> subject species, as well as its rate of internal divergence and
>> other factors, however the same principle seems to underlie.
> Oh man, it's been way too long since I looked at this kind of
> question, and I'm not about to haul out those old texts. :-) I think
> there *is* some psycho-social analog to genetic diversity in muds,
> but unless your PCs are exchanging complex genetic material I
> wouldn't worry about directly.
I would argue that social engineering on the player level is directly
analagous to "exchanging complex genetic material".
>>> Project name: MURKLE
>> Now to expand on my earlier, tired-outta-my-gourd exposition.
>>
>> The world is, of course, persistant. There are no resets. There
>> are no re-pops. There are no little figures in white coats putting
>> things back the way they were (cf MirrorWorld).
> I agree that this is a good way to go... but you're going to have to
> have *some* kind of repop, or otherwise you're going to run out of
> things pretty fast.
True. I use what I term "organic systems" to re-establish known
states. Most typically however they system will tend to any of a
number of known states, or a progression of states, by using any of a
potentially large number of in-game active agents to effect it.
> We've talked in the past about monsters that regenerate along
> plausible lines (e.g., spider queens that lay eggs that grow to
> adults that comprise the giant spider population -- where the rate
> of egg-laying depends on the amount the queen is able to eat). I
> think you need this sort of plausible repop at several levels to
> keep the game world viable.
True. Lotsa lotsa very very simple feedback systems which then
interact in interesting ways and maintain a changing landscape. Heck
I've got mobile migration already (see archives) to ensure that areas
don't become fully depopulated, the breeder structure (ala Orcs) to
ensure species don't become extinct, and a semi-structure for mobile
squads and seargents to enable adaptive group tactics by mobiles (see
archives).
I really don't care any more about the door being locked and requiring
a key to get thru, or the door now being open and remaining open for
evermore. I've come to the view that those sorts of puzzles have
little place outside of single-player adventures (as fun as they
are), and almost no place in a persistent world.
>> Currently slated is to attempt a graphical interface. I'm not a
>> graphics person, either from the artistry or the DP sides. Dunno
>> how I'm going to approach this. My preference would be for a very
>> very cheap dynamic rendering system. (AlphaWorlds? Are they still
>> a going proposition?)
> ActiveWorlds is still around, mostly run by Circle of Fire Studios I
> believe. But I don't think their rendering system is appropriate
> for a game like this. At this point, I don't know of a cheap
> solution to creating a graphical interface, whether first or third
> person: no matter how you go, the art is voluminous and expensive.
Yeah. I've been digging into the area lightly over the last days.
Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.
>>> Combat: Yes, I have perma-death. Combat is intended to be fatal,
>>> messy, and highly risky even to the experts. The underdog is
>>> expected to win or do serious damage an appreciable percentage of
>>> the time.
>> ... Passive death caused by the world (eg fell down a cliff and
>> died, walked along and a tree fell on you) is not __always__
>> permanently fatal. Death caused by other players or NPCs (eg
>> combat), or overt acts of the game world is __usually__ permanent.
>> The rules will be deliberately foggy and vague. Its not intended
>> to be fair. It is intended to be capricious, but with known
>> tendencies.
> This may sound interesting, but it's also the express lane to losing
> players. You're going to need some way of giving players an
> incentive --across lives-- to stick around. Otherwise, particularly
> after a death that they see as useless/unfair/capricious, they are
> likely to either leave (if you're lucky) or turn into bitter
> game-wreckers.
This seems a matter of presentation. Consider:
> l
You are standing on a high cliff. It is very windy.
Suddenly the ground crumbles beneath you! You jump, grab, slip, and
fall!
SPLAT! You have died.
A deity deigns to notice you. You sense your life being examined;
every action, every utterance, every minor thought, every nervous
twitch, misdeed and helping hand offered is being picked apart and
dissected. The skeins of your lifelines are unwound and held before
the glaring light of immortal scrutiny. Its not fun.
A decision is made. Massive dice thunder across the firmament.
The gods do play dice with the universe.
The dice stop. There is silence, a silence of the soul that has no
end.
You will live (or die).
Now in truth the system will examine the method of death and attempt
to divine a first order cause. Did you die because the sea has been
eating at the cliff for weeks and it finally collapsed, or did you die
because Bubba has been undermining the cliff in attempt to kill
wanderers such as you, or was Bubba merely mining for valuables in the
cliff face? If the cause binds directly with seeming intention to a
player, then your death will likely be permanent. If it doesn't
resolve to a player, then you will likely be resurrected. However
this level of mechanics is not presented to the players, and there is
enough slop left in the calculations to make divination of the
mechanics unprofitable.
Does your point still hold in such a case?
Then again there's always Wiggin's approach:
Life is short, fast, hard, and glorious. Nobody lives long. You
can however live with panache.
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw@null.net
(Contractor) Internet: coder@ibm.net
---------(*) Internet: claw@under.engr.sgi.com
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...
--
MUD-Dev: Advancing an unrealised future.
- MURKLE: Wot it is Chris Gray
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Chris Gray
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Ling
- MURKLE: Wot it is Oliver Jowett
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Ling
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Ling
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is jacob langthorn
- MURKLE: Wot it is Jon A. Lambert
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- We're Tiny, we're Toonie, we're all a little Loonie! Ling
- META: Search features of the MUD-Dev archive J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Adam Wiggins
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Holly Sommer
- CGDC, a summary Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Chris Gray
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Marian Griffith
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Mike Sellers
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Chris Gray
- CGDC, a summary Travis S. Casey
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Adam Wiggins
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Chris Gray
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary John Bertoglio
- CGDC, a summary s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CGDC, a summary John Bertoglio
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary John Bertoglio
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Joel Kelso
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Marian Griffith
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Marian Griffith
- CGDC, a summary Jon A. Lambert
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Adam Wiggins
- CGDC, a summary Jon A. Lambert
- CGDC, a summary Orion Henry
- MUD mentation system Matthew R. Sheahan
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. John Bertoglio
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Dan Shiovitz
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Adam Wiggins
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Vadim Tkachenko
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Richard Woolcock
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Dan Shiovitz
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. J C Lawrence
- On tanks... J C Lawrence
- On tanks... Ling
- More on LetsSystems J C Lawrence
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Travis S. Casey
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Adam Wiggins
- Attributes: Sanity Travis S. Casey
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- mudschools Marian Griffith
- mudschools Matt Chatterley
- Mudschool Ling
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Holly Sommer
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Vadim Tkachenko
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator J C Lawrence
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Vadim Tkachenko
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Robert Woods
- Leaving characters in play Joel Kelso
- Leaving characters in play Ben Greear
- Leaving characters in play John Bertoglio
- Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play John Bertoglio
- Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Leaving characters in play John Bertoglio
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play D. B. Brown
- Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Leaving characters in play Jon A. Lambert
- Leaving characters in play s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Leaving characters in play Ben Greear
- Request "unsubscribe calvin@orinconhi.com mud-dev" Petidomo Mailing List Server
- Natural Language Processing (NLP) Shawn Halpenny
- Is There a There in Cyberspace? J C Lawrence
- Is There a There in Cyberspace? Jon A. Lambert
- Is There a There in Cyberspace? J C Lawrence
- [OT] Web Pages Jon A. Lambert
- AR Mining System John Bertoglio
- AR Mining System Oliver Jowett
- AR Mining System John Bertoglio
- mudschools Mike Sellers
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Travis S. Casey
- Character creation, was: Mudschool Richard Woolcock
- Character creation, was: Mudschool Jon A. Lambert
- Onchat -- Java based chat room. J C Lawrence
- A short introduction of a (quite) long-time lurker Per Vognsen
- [MUD-Dev]World Size and The "Hot House" Factor Was PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea John Bertoglio
- mudschools jacob langthorn
- world concept jacob langthorn
- world concept Jo Dillon
- world concept J C Lawrence
- world concept Holly Sommer
- world concept jacob langthorn
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading performance Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance J C Lawrence
- META: Lost messages J C Lawrence
- Titanic's demise (was MURKLE: Wot it is) Mike Sellers
- Titanic's demise (was MURKLE: Wot it is) Koster, Raph
- mudschools jacob langthorn
- mudschools Marian Griffith
- mudschools Mike Sellers
- mudschools Marian Griffith
- mudschools Robert Woods
- mudschools Mike Sellers
- mudschools Robert Woods
- mudschools Robert Woods
- mudschools Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD Schools Adam Casbarian
- MUD Schools Chris Lloyd
- MUD Schools Jon Lambert
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Oliver Jowett
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Oliver Jowett
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play D. B. Brown
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams T. Alexander Popiel
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams John Bertoglio
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams John Bertoglio
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Ada ms Koster, Raph
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By ErnestAdam s Koster, Raph
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Ada ms J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams John Bertoglio
- Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- Java multithreading test source J C Lawrence
- Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- Java multithreading test source Chris Gray
- Mud Tales John Bertoglio
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Ling
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Ling
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Nested coorindate space model Jason Goodwin
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Now For Something Completely Different: PK with style John Bertoglio
- Sex in Games -- ya gotta, um, yeah J C Lawrence
- Combat in the Abandoned Realms John Bertoglio
- A Metaphysics System s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- META: New list features J C Lawrence
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Mike Sellers
- OT: Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading test source John Bertoglio
- OT: Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- Plug: Got my java client to work using the java-plugin. Ben Greear
- UO's rep system, was: CGDC Koster, Raph
- UO's rep system, was: CGDC J C Lawrence
- BIAP Chat/Chat Pro (fwd) Nathan F Yospe
- BIAP Chat/Chat Pro (fwd) Holly Sommer
- Tutorial for Multi-User Environments Niklas Elmqvist
- Tutorial for Multi-User Environments Niklas Elmqvist
- skill system Andrew C.M. McClintock
- skill system Jo Dillon
- skill system Andrew C.M. McClintock
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Marian Griffith
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system Jon A. Lambert
- skill system John Bertoglio
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Katrina McClelan
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Koster, Raph
- skill system John Bertoglio
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Mike Sellers
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Katrina McClelan
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Katrina McClelan
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Dan Shiovitz
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system John Bertoglio