May 1998
- OT: CGDC Adam Wiggins
- OT: CGDC Mike Sellers
- There can be.. only ONE! (fwd) Ling
- There can be.. only ONE! (fwd) Matt Chatterley
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Jon A. Lambert
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Chris Gray
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Adam Wiggins
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma J C Lawrence
- (fwd) AD: [custom graphical] whitestar Crossfi Jon A. Lambert
- LIST: The "MUD-DEV" MUD Development mailing list J C Lawrence
- Wired, UO, Mike Sellers
- Wired, UO, John Bertoglio
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: Dr. Cat
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: Koster, Raph
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: J C Lawrence
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: John Bertoglio
- OT: Supporting articles found for UOL play style Jon A. Lambert
- PK's: A solution? J C Lawrence
- Preview of Asheron's Call J C Lawrence
- Asheron's Call Interview with Toby Ragaini, Lead Designer, and Jon Grande, Product Planner. J C Lawrence
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Adam Wiggins
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Dan Shiovitz
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Adam Wiggins
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources J C Lawrence
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Koster, Raph
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources J C Lawrence
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources John Bertoglio
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources J C Lawrence
- Motivations for Creating Mud-Like Worllds and Servers | John Bertoglio
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail J C Lawrence
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail John Bertoglio
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail Matt Chatterley
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail J C Lawrence
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail J C Lawrence
- Character development [was ] Koster, Raph
- Motivations for Creating Mud-Like Worlds and Servers Holly Sommer
- META -- membership Jay Sax
- META -- membership Koster, Raph
- META -- membership J C Lawrence
- Motivations (was something else...) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Motivations (was something else...) Richard Woolcock
- client UI written in server's language (was Some thoughts...) Erik Ostrom
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma J C Lawrence
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Travis S. Casey
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma J C Lawrence
- META: Character of the list's membership J C Lawrence
- quickie CGDC report Mike Sellers
- quickie CGDC report Adam Wiggins
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately J C Lawrence
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately J C Lawrence
- Some essays I've written lately J C Lawrence
- Frandel 3D (fwd) Holly Sommer
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Raph Koster
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Koster, Raph
- MURKLE: Wot it is Dr. Cat
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Shawn Halpenny
- MURKLE: Wot it is Mike Sellers
- MURKLE: Wot it is Nathan F Yospe
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Chris Gray
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Chris Gray
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Ling
- MURKLE: Wot it is Oliver Jowett
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Ling
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Ling
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is jacob langthorn
- MURKLE: Wot it is Jon A. Lambert
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- We're Tiny, we're Toonie, we're all a little Loonie! Ling
- META: Search features of the MUD-Dev archive J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Adam Wiggins
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Holly Sommer
- CGDC, a summary Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Chris Gray
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Marian Griffith
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Mike Sellers
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Chris Gray
- CGDC, a summary Travis S. Casey
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Adam Wiggins
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Koster, Raph wrote:
> On Sunday, May 17, 1998 10:16 PM Travis S. Casey [SMTP:efindel@io.com]
> > This is the primary reason why I favor learn-by-using-based skill
> > systems. In such a system, players are free to define their own goals
> > (at least, as far as character advancement goes), and the means of
> > achieving those goals to is to exercise the skill in question.
> > future.
>
> And now those who made those choices are sorta in backlash against it.
> Quite aside from the difficulty of balancing a skill-based system (as
> opposed to a class-based system, and yes, there are many half-and-half
> systems that can be designed) it's the usage part that is problematic.
> It led to a lot of sitting and macroing, and the advancement rates for
> differing skill are hellish to balance out.
My friend showed me a client for UO that uses screen positions and
compares on pixel colors to automate things like spellcasting and
character healing. I suppose it's a sign of success that someone would
put that much work into trying to "cheat" :)
> A couple of issues/approaches/etc
> * What UO did: each time a skill test is done, chance of increase,
> weighted by an advancement table (UO actually tries to generate said
> table based on skill usage frequency)
I must say I was somewhat underwhelmed by UO's skill advacement. You guys
seemed to manage to avoid using standard devices to limit macroing which I
thought were cannon by now. (Was this done on purpose, or just due to
time constraints?)
For instance...learning to hide by just standing in a room pounding the
hide key over and over? Not only is that easy to macro, but it begs it,
since it's not fun. Normally a skill like hide gets a chance to go up
when someone tries to find you, not when you just crouch in a corner by
yourself.
> * Make it time based--skills must achieve a certain minimum number of
> tallies in a given span of time, and learning takes place after that
> span of time
This is a good one. Set up properly, it means that using a skill ten
times or one hundred times in the course of an hour results in the same
advancement, making macroing absolutely pointless. I believe the first
effective use of this was made by RuneQuest.
A good example: while playing on YaMUD (a from-scratch, classless,
skill-based mud that never gained much popularity) my friend and I decided
to try to learn up our languages the "hard" way (ie, not going to the
language teacher) in order to save money. So we'd spam each other
speaking in our native language trying to get the skills up. We quickly
figured out that you only got once chance per minute (or so, I don't know
how long the time period was) to learn the skill, and after that
(regardless of whether your skill went up or not) you couldn't learn again
until a minute had passed. So we took to throwing odd phrases out here
and there in different languages every so often. Not only was this more
fun, but it made sense and prevented spam-bot learning.
> * Put in a traditional "practice points" system or something to serve as
> barrier of entry
YaMud had no classes or levels, but it did have experience in the form of
skill points. You 'spent' these skill points at a teacher to raise your
skill. In addition, there were limits to how much a skill could go up
either exclusively at a teacher or exclusively on your own. You had to
use a mix of both practicing the skill and training at a teacher to have
it go up properly.
Although not very "realistic" (I'm starting to dislike using that word),
this is probably one of the easier ways to balance overall skill learning,
since it's a number that is directly tunable. Most of the parameters for
skill system have somewhat indirect effects on the system as a whole,
making them difficult to tune easily. Legend has one of the simpler but
most effective skill point systems I've seen: one skill point per level,
with each level costing a certain amount of experience.
Our skill system, which I've described before, is rather complex (although
not probably not nearly as much so as Nathan's skill web). Besides
involving several hundred skills organized into a tree and assigned
difficulty, we store several values for each skill - specifically three,
one for your 'potential', one for your actual skill, and a time value
(when that skill was last learned, and when it was last used).
I'm extremely happy with it, but our testing has been limited to brief
alphas with a few (like, a dozen) of our friends, so it's certainly hasn't
had any real stress testing.
> * You've got the nasty "atrophy problem" too--players hate losing skill
> points, but a usage based system implies eventually maxing out in
> everything. Either this or some form of "skills in opposition" table or
> something encourages specialization and doesn' t preclude later change
> of character emphasis (which we have found to be popular).
Yes. It's always better to set things up so that they seem less limiting,
even if they really are. :)
I've heard some highly amusing stories about the effects of your skill
system. My favorite was probably the "lute of death": since someone using
a skill near you gave a small chance to learn, a few strums of a lute near
a skill-maxed mage could increase his musicianship a few points, thus
sending his hard-earned thaumaturgy skills spiraling downwards...
Skill based systems are very cool and as a player I much prefer them, but
they are quite difficult to balance. IMO Legend did a very good job, but
it had the advantage of simplicity and the fact that it was under less
"stress" due to a much smaller playerbase.
Adam
--
MUD-Dev: Advancing an unrealised future. - CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Adam Wiggins
- CGDC, a summary Chris Gray
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary John Bertoglio
- CGDC, a summary s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CGDC, a summary John Bertoglio
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary John Bertoglio
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Joel Kelso
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Marian Griffith
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Marian Griffith
- CGDC, a summary Jon A. Lambert
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Adam Wiggins
- CGDC, a summary Jon A. Lambert
- CGDC, a summary Orion Henry
- MUD mentation system Matthew R. Sheahan
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. John Bertoglio
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Dan Shiovitz
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Adam Wiggins
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Vadim Tkachenko
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Richard Woolcock
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Dan Shiovitz
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. J C Lawrence
- On tanks... J C Lawrence
- On tanks... Ling
- More on LetsSystems J C Lawrence
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Travis S. Casey
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Adam Wiggins
- Attributes: Sanity Travis S. Casey
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- mudschools Marian Griffith
- mudschools Matt Chatterley
- Mudschool Ling
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Holly Sommer
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Vadim Tkachenko
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator J C Lawrence
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Vadim Tkachenko
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Robert Woods
- Leaving characters in play Joel Kelso
- Leaving characters in play Ben Greear
- Leaving characters in play John Bertoglio
- Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play John Bertoglio
- Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Leaving characters in play John Bertoglio
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play D. B. Brown
- Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Leaving characters in play Jon A. Lambert
- Leaving characters in play s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Leaving characters in play Ben Greear
- Request "unsubscribe calvin@orinconhi.com mud-dev" Petidomo Mailing List Server
- Natural Language Processing (NLP) Shawn Halpenny
- Is There a There in Cyberspace? J C Lawrence
- Is There a There in Cyberspace? Jon A. Lambert
- Is There a There in Cyberspace? J C Lawrence
- [OT] Web Pages Jon A. Lambert
- AR Mining System John Bertoglio
- AR Mining System Oliver Jowett
- AR Mining System John Bertoglio
- mudschools Mike Sellers
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Travis S. Casey
- Character creation, was: Mudschool Richard Woolcock
- Character creation, was: Mudschool Jon A. Lambert
- Onchat -- Java based chat room. J C Lawrence
- A short introduction of a (quite) long-time lurker Per Vognsen
- [MUD-Dev]World Size and The "Hot House" Factor Was PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea John Bertoglio
- mudschools jacob langthorn
- world concept jacob langthorn
- world concept Jo Dillon
- world concept J C Lawrence
- world concept Holly Sommer
- world concept jacob langthorn
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading performance Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance J C Lawrence
- META: Lost messages J C Lawrence
- Titanic's demise (was MURKLE: Wot it is) Mike Sellers
- Titanic's demise (was MURKLE: Wot it is) Koster, Raph
- mudschools jacob langthorn
- mudschools Marian Griffith
- mudschools Mike Sellers
- mudschools Marian Griffith
- mudschools Robert Woods
- mudschools Mike Sellers
- mudschools Robert Woods
- mudschools Robert Woods
- mudschools Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD Schools Adam Casbarian
- MUD Schools Chris Lloyd
- MUD Schools Jon Lambert
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Oliver Jowett
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Oliver Jowett
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play D. B. Brown
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams T. Alexander Popiel
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams John Bertoglio
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams John Bertoglio
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Ada ms Koster, Raph
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By ErnestAdam s Koster, Raph
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Ada ms J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams John Bertoglio
- Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- Java multithreading test source J C Lawrence
- Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- Java multithreading test source Chris Gray
- Mud Tales John Bertoglio
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Ling
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Ling
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Nested coorindate space model Jason Goodwin
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Now For Something Completely Different: PK with style John Bertoglio
- Sex in Games -- ya gotta, um, yeah J C Lawrence
- Combat in the Abandoned Realms John Bertoglio
- A Metaphysics System s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- META: New list features J C Lawrence
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Mike Sellers
- OT: Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading test source John Bertoglio
- OT: Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- Plug: Got my java client to work using the java-plugin. Ben Greear
- UO's rep system, was: CGDC Koster, Raph
- UO's rep system, was: CGDC J C Lawrence
- BIAP Chat/Chat Pro (fwd) Nathan F Yospe
- BIAP Chat/Chat Pro (fwd) Holly Sommer
- Tutorial for Multi-User Environments Niklas Elmqvist
- Tutorial for Multi-User Environments Niklas Elmqvist
- skill system Andrew C.M. McClintock
- skill system Jo Dillon
- skill system Andrew C.M. McClintock
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Marian Griffith
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system Jon A. Lambert
- skill system John Bertoglio
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Katrina McClelan
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Koster, Raph
- skill system John Bertoglio
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Mike Sellers
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Katrina McClelan
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Katrina McClelan
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Dan Shiovitz
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system John Bertoglio