May 1998
- OT: CGDC Adam Wiggins
- OT: CGDC Mike Sellers
- There can be.. only ONE! (fwd) Ling
- There can be.. only ONE! (fwd) Matt Chatterley
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Jon A. Lambert
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Chris Gray
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Adam Wiggins
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma J C Lawrence
- (fwd) AD: [custom graphical] whitestar Crossfi Jon A. Lambert
- LIST: The "MUD-DEV" MUD Development mailing list J C Lawrence
- Wired, UO, Mike Sellers
- Wired, UO, John Bertoglio
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: Dr. Cat
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: Koster, Raph
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: J C Lawrence
- Wired, UO, and Internet Gaming (was OT: John Bertoglio
- OT: Supporting articles found for UOL play style Jon A. Lambert
- PK's: A solution? J C Lawrence
- Preview of Asheron's Call J C Lawrence
- Asheron's Call Interview with Toby Ragaini, Lead Designer, and Jon Grande, Product Planner. J C Lawrence
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Adam Wiggins
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Dan Shiovitz
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Adam Wiggins
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources J C Lawrence
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources Koster, Raph
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources J C Lawrence
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources John Bertoglio
- Character maintinence - expenditure of resources J C Lawrence
- Motivations for Creating Mud-Like Worllds and Servers | John Bertoglio
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail J C Lawrence
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail John Bertoglio
-----Original Message-----
From: J C Lawrence <claw@under.engr.sgi.com>
To: mud-dev@kanga.nu <mud-dev@kanga.nu>
Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 7:16 PM
Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail
>
>Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:59:16 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Raph & Kristen Koster <koster@eden.com>
>To: claw@under.engr.sgi.com
>Subject: Re: FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail
>In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%pê%l=MOLACH-980420221729Z-59932@molach.origin.ea.com>
>
>On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Koster, Raph wrote:
>> [J C Lawrence:]
>
><<...personal details deleted here...>>
>
>> I have begun to fear however that the list is also functioning to
>> dissuade as much advancement in the field as it is fostering it, by
>> burying its members in endless mental masturbation without ever having
>> them actually go out and produce that next great server/game/idea etc.
There is enough content is the "There can be only...one" thread for a
commercial development team to steal to justify funding this list for 100
years. (I have almost no interest in that thread, personally, but the ideas
could produce a hell of a game.)
I do think it is tragic that many people will profit from the contributions
of the mud development community, but, by in large, not those coders.
>
>Ah, the peril of the ivory tower. :) I doubt it is dissuading it, so much
>as it is simply reflecting what woul dhave happened anyway. So you've got
>a bunch of "great plan" people who at least are talking about their great
>plan. I don't know that any higher proportion of them would actually be
>putting it into practice if they DIDN'T have the list... do you? My
>impression has always been that theoreticians, well, theorize, and those
>who do, tend to just go do, rather than talk much about it. :) And then
>there's the few (as we do have some on the list) who did first, and
>conduct their endless post-mortems, like me. ;)
>
>> We keep talking, and not one of us (notable minor exception of Chris
>> Gray) has yet to actually *produce* anything that has been released
>> since they joined the list.
>
>I started to deny that I fit in that category, then I realized that I
>joined the list after UO was pretty close to shipping. Possible after it
>shipped. I don't remember when exactly I joined anymore. :P
>
>It's certainly true that I haven't given anything to the MUD community per
>se, however, in terms of code that can be built upon, etc.
(This comment is directed at Mr. Koster, but applies to all the active
members of this list. I have created thousands of lines of code from ideas
I have gotten from the list. Now, some of the ideas have messed me up like
JL's 4-layer wear code...falls into the to-good-not-to-ripoff category and
actually puts me farther behind from public release. But these indulgences
will make for a much better product. Sure, too many good ideas can be as
bad as too few, but only if you can't exercise self control. )
I think creating a business with 20 to 200k customers(depending on whose
numbers you read) that uses significant elements from traditional mud
design along with a consumer friendly graphic interface is something of an
achievemnt. I have coded ideas from UO directly into my system. Many of my
original system ideas were similar to what was tried initially in the
commercial release of UO. The problems UO had with these ideas have saved
me days of work writing code to produce concepts that, while compelling,
have proven faulty in practice. The sheer numbers of UO players speak to
the pent-up demand for this kind of product.
As far as code goes...My poor brain glazes over when I look a C code
snippets...now pseudo-code, that's useful. When someone describes the
logical structure (as well as the Bubba/Boffo stuff), lights go on and
features get added.
>I confess to
>being at the point with text muds where I'd want a fresh new code base,
>from scratch, and I don't have time to develop one--nor, in fact, the
>expertise to make it as I'd like.
>
>Someday we'll release Legend's code, probably around the time when it is
>completely obsolete. :)
>
>> Very 1984/Kafka-esque -- keep your enemies *talking* about utopia and
>> never actually *achieving* utopia and the thought police have lost all
>> the battles and won the war. Phyrrus would have love it.
>
>So your goal was to prevent the evelopment of virtual reality in the 20th
>century, eh? You fiend. ;)
>
>I admit to having lost patience with much discourse surrounding what I do,
>now, because I find myself with bigger fish to fry. I am more interested
>in how exactly to get us to virtual worlds, than in whether or not
>EverQuest or Asheron's Call will be a more fun GAME. (They probably will
>be--I just don't think they will advance my underlying cause much).
Baby steps perhaps, but necessary.
>Much
>of what is discussed ont he MUD-Dev list keeps that goal firmly in focus,
>but of course, I long ago concluded it would never come to fruition in the
>forms described by the folks on the list. ;) Too much talk, not enough
>action, and, frankly, too wedded to text.
I suggest that the arcane telnet/terminal-style interface is more of the
villian here than is text. The average person with a Win machine would call
a service tech if faced with a C:> prompt on a black screen. They feel the
same way with a telnet app. The web is considered a graphical interface
when, in fact, virtually the content is text. A text-based interface is
essentially all a one-person shop can work with because of the vast
resources required to produce graphics in the required quanities. Being the
only game in town, we make a virtue out of necessity. (do I win the most
cliches in one sentence prize?). The best text worlds will pale in
commercial popularity next to fully graphic ones, but the market created by
those graphical worlds will enough people into the market to make many
kinds of worlds possible. It is kind of like good lunch resturants...large
markets seem to be able to absorb an infinite number. You will never make
as much a succesful dinner house, but the risk is much lower as is the
commitment.
>(Agh, I can't believe I just
>said that, I who championed literate mud area writing for so long...)
Graphic muds would benefit from extensive, literate area writing as well.
>Oh well, I knew we'd drift back into mud-talk again. ;) So much for the
>baby stuff! I look forward to hearing your comments on the mud-related
>stuff in my earlier email, if you have any...
>
Good luck on the baby.
>- -Raph
>
>--
>J C Lawrence Internet: claw@null.net
>(Contractor) Internet: coder@ibm.net
>---------(*) Internet: claw@under.engr.sgi.com
>...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...
>
>--
>MUD-Dev: Advancing an unrealised future.
>
--
MUD-Dev: Advancing an unrealised future. - FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail Matt Chatterley
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail J C Lawrence
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail J C Lawrence
- FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail John Bertoglio
- Character development [was ] Koster, Raph
- Motivations for Creating Mud-Like Worlds and Servers Holly Sommer
- META -- membership Jay Sax
- META -- membership Koster, Raph
- META -- membership J C Lawrence
- Motivations (was something else...) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Motivations (was something else...) Richard Woolcock
- client UI written in server's language (was Some thoughts...) Erik Ostrom
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma J C Lawrence
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma Travis S. Casey
- Some thoughts on languages and users - was: Ma J C Lawrence
- META: Character of the list's membership J C Lawrence
- quickie CGDC report Mike Sellers
- quickie CGDC report Adam Wiggins
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately J C Lawrence
- Some essays I've written lately Koster, Raph
- Some essays I've written lately J C Lawrence
- Some essays I've written lately J C Lawrence
- Frandel 3D (fwd) Holly Sommer
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Raph Koster
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Koster, Raph
- MURKLE: Wot it is Dr. Cat
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Shawn Halpenny
- MURKLE: Wot it is Mike Sellers
- MURKLE: Wot it is Nathan F Yospe
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Chris Gray
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Chris Gray
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Ling
- MURKLE: Wot it is Oliver Jowett
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Ling
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is Ling
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- MURKLE: Wot it is jacob langthorn
- MURKLE: Wot it is Jon A. Lambert
- MURKLE: Wot it is J C Lawrence
- We're Tiny, we're Toonie, we're all a little Loonie! Ling
- META: Search features of the MUD-Dev archive J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Adam Wiggins
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Holly Sommer
- CGDC, a summary Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Chris Gray
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Marian Griffith
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Mike Sellers
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Chris Gray
- CGDC, a summary Travis S. Casey
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Adam Wiggins
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Chris Gray
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary John Bertoglio
- CGDC, a summary s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CGDC, a summary John Bertoglio
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary John Bertoglio
- CGDC, a summary Koster, Raph
- CGDC, a summary Joel Kelso
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Marian Griffith
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Marian Griffith
- CGDC, a summary Jon A. Lambert
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary J C Lawrence
- CGDC, a summary Adam Wiggins
- CGDC, a summary Jon A. Lambert
- CGDC, a summary Orion Henry
- MUD mentation system Matthew R. Sheahan
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. John Bertoglio
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Dan Shiovitz
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Adam Wiggins
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Vadim Tkachenko
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Richard Woolcock
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Ben Greear
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. Dan Shiovitz
- How to handle log-outs in a totally dynamic world. J C Lawrence
- On tanks... J C Lawrence
- On tanks... Ling
- More on LetsSystems J C Lawrence
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Travis S. Casey
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Adam Wiggins
- Attributes: Sanity Travis S. Casey
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- Attributes: Sanity Holly Sommer
- mudschools Marian Griffith
- mudschools Matt Chatterley
- Mudschool Ling
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Holly Sommer
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Vadim Tkachenko
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator J C Lawrence
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Vadim Tkachenko
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator John Bertoglio
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Robert Woods
- Leaving characters in play Joel Kelso
- Leaving characters in play Ben Greear
- Leaving characters in play John Bertoglio
- Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play John Bertoglio
- Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Leaving characters in play John Bertoglio
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Leaving characters in play D. B. Brown
- Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Leaving characters in play Jon A. Lambert
- Leaving characters in play s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Leaving characters in play Ben Greear
- Request "unsubscribe calvin@orinconhi.com mud-dev" Petidomo Mailing List Server
- Natural Language Processing (NLP) Shawn Halpenny
- Is There a There in Cyberspace? J C Lawrence
- Is There a There in Cyberspace? Jon A. Lambert
- Is There a There in Cyberspace? J C Lawrence
- [OT] Web Pages Jon A. Lambert
- AR Mining System John Bertoglio
- AR Mining System Oliver Jowett
- AR Mining System John Bertoglio
- mudschools Mike Sellers
- Using HTML for a Mud character generator Travis S. Casey
- Character creation, was: Mudschool Richard Woolcock
- Character creation, was: Mudschool Jon A. Lambert
- Onchat -- Java based chat room. J C Lawrence
- A short introduction of a (quite) long-time lurker Per Vognsen
- [MUD-Dev]World Size and The "Hot House" Factor Was PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea John Bertoglio
- mudschools jacob langthorn
- world concept jacob langthorn
- world concept Jo Dillon
- world concept J C Lawrence
- world concept Holly Sommer
- world concept jacob langthorn
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading performance Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading performance Chris Gray
- OT: Java multithreading performance Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading performance J C Lawrence
- META: Lost messages J C Lawrence
- Titanic's demise (was MURKLE: Wot it is) Mike Sellers
- Titanic's demise (was MURKLE: Wot it is) Koster, Raph
- mudschools jacob langthorn
- mudschools Marian Griffith
- mudschools Mike Sellers
- mudschools Marian Griffith
- mudschools Robert Woods
- mudschools Mike Sellers
- mudschools Robert Woods
- mudschools Robert Woods
- mudschools Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD Schools Adam Casbarian
- MUD Schools Chris Lloyd
- MUD Schools Jon Lambert
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Oliver Jowett
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Oliver Jowett
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play D. B. Brown
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play J C Lawrence
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Orion Henry
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Travis S. Casey
- Combat Was Leaving characters in play Adam Wiggins
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams T. Alexander Popiel
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams John Bertoglio
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams John Bertoglio
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Ada ms Koster, Raph
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By ErnestAdam s Koster, Raph
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Ada ms J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams J C Lawrence
- Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! -- By Ernest Adams John Bertoglio
- Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- Java multithreading test source J C Lawrence
- Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- Java multithreading test source Chris Gray
- Mud Tales John Bertoglio
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Ling
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Ling
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Nested coorindate space model Jason Goodwin
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Benjamin D. Wiechel
- Nested coorindate space model J C Lawrence
- Nested coorindate space model Michael Hohensee
- Now For Something Completely Different: PK with style John Bertoglio
- Sex in Games -- ya gotta, um, yeah J C Lawrence
- Combat in the Abandoned Realms John Bertoglio
- A Metaphysics System s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- META: New list features J C Lawrence
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Mike Sellers
- OT: Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- OT: Java multithreading test source John Bertoglio
- OT: Java multithreading test source Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Java multithreading test source Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Java multithreading test source Ben Greear
- Plug: Got my java client to work using the java-plugin. Ben Greear
- UO's rep system, was: CGDC Koster, Raph
- UO's rep system, was: CGDC J C Lawrence
- BIAP Chat/Chat Pro (fwd) Nathan F Yospe
- BIAP Chat/Chat Pro (fwd) Holly Sommer
- Tutorial for Multi-User Environments Niklas Elmqvist
- Tutorial for Multi-User Environments Niklas Elmqvist
- skill system Andrew C.M. McClintock
- skill system Jo Dillon
- skill system Andrew C.M. McClintock
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Marian Griffith
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system Jon A. Lambert
- skill system John Bertoglio
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Katrina McClelan
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Koster, Raph
- skill system John Bertoglio
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Mike Sellers
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Katrina McClelan
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Katrina McClelan
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Dan Shiovitz
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system Adam Wiggins
- skill system Richard Woolcock
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- skill system J C Lawrence
- skill system John Bertoglio