January 1998
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Stephen Zepp
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp coder@ibm.net
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Shawn Halpenny
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp JC Lawrence
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Shawn Halpenny
- Happy new year Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Mud-Dev FAQ Ling
- Mud-Dev FAQ Jon A. Lambert
- Mud-Dev FAQ JC Lawrence
- Mud-Dev FAQ Adam Wiggins
- Who's bugging who? : was- Wild West Jon A. Lambert
- my bio (was Mud-Dev FAQ) Mike Sellers
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Jon A. Lambert
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) coder@ibm.net
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) JC Lawrence
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) JC Lawrence
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Suomi Finland Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- OT: Suomi Finland ##Make Nylander
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Adam Wiggins
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Jon A. Lambert
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Jon A. Lambert
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Mike Sellers
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Journal of MUD Research, Vol. 3, No. 1 [TEXT] coder@ibm.net
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) Ling
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) JC Lawrence
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) Stephen Zepp
- threaded servers (was request for comments Mike Sellers
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Adam Wiggins
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Ling
- MUD Economy Brandon J. Rickman
- MUD Economy Marian Griffith
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy JC Lawrence
- MUD Economy Koster, Raph
- MUD Economy Matt Chatterley
- MUD Economy JC Lawrence
- MUD Economy Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Jobs available Koster, Raph
- OT: DCOM and RMI Jon A. Lambert
- OT: DCOM and RMI Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: DCOM and RMI Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: DCOM and RMI Miroslav Silovic
- OT: DCOM and RMI Alex Oren
- OT: DCOM and RMI Chris Gray
- request for comments Miroslav Silovic
- request for comments JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Matt Chatterley
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- request for comments JC Lawrence
- Text vs Video; Movies, Books & muds. Nathan Yospe
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Vadim Tkachenko
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) JC Lawrence
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Brandon J. Rickman
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Adam Wiggins
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Brandon J. Rickman
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Marian Griffith
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Chris Gray
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Adam Wiggins
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Unique items Richard Woolcock
- Unique items Jon A. Lambert
- Unique items Vadim Tkachenko
- Unique items Jon A. Lambert
- Unique items JC Lawrence
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Two Tiers Ling
- MUD Development Digest Dr. Cat
- FAQ Ling
- Clients Matt Chatterley
- Clients JC Lawrence
- Clients Shawn Halpenny
- Clients Matt Chatterley
- Event handling - some definitions Jon A. Lambert
- Event Handling Jon A. Lambert
- Simulations - was: 'A flamewar startingpoint.' Jon A. Lambert
- Formatting apology Stephen Zepp
- OT: Insane Wordwrapping Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- OT: Insane Wordwrapping Alex Oren
- Summary Marian Griffith
- Clients Andrew Wilson
- Vast areas in muds Ling
- Vast areas in muds John G.
- Vast areas in muds Nathan Yospe
- Vast areas in muds Mike Sellers
- Vast areas in muds John G.
- Vast areas in muds Nathan Yospe
- META: Web futures for the list JC Lawrence
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Chris Gray
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Chris Gray
- Graphical mud perspectives Richard Woolcock
- Graphical mud perspectives Nathan Yospe
- Graphical mud perspectives Richard Woolcock
- Graphical mud perspectives Koster, Raph
- Graphical mud perspectives Mike Sellers
- Graphical mud perspectives Koster, Raph
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads Nathan Yospe
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads Brandon Gillespie
- CORBA, RMI, threads Chris Gray
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads Brandon Gillespie
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads coder@ibm.net
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads Vadim Tkachenko
- CORBA, RMI, threads Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- CORBA, RMI, threads coder@ibm.net
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Greg Munt
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Marian Griffith
- Clients based on Netscape 5? coder@ibm.net
- OT? The impact of the web on muds Mike Sellers
- The Anti-Mac Interface JC Lawrence
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Jon Leonard
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Mike Sellers
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Chris Gray
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- VRML Becomes ISO/IEC International Standard (fwd) Nathan Yospe
- Arctic's Project? Brandon Cline
- Arctic's Project? Adam Wiggins
- Arctic's Project? Brandon Cline
- Arctic's Project? Chris Gray
- FAQ Marc Eyrignoux
- Java and Javascript Greg Munt
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript Jon Leonard
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Mike Sellers
- Java and Javascript J C Lawrence
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Travis Casey
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Sauron
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Alex Oren
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Ling
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Richard Woolcock
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Vadim Tkachenko
- MetaVoice, MetaFont JC Lawrence
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project Marc Eyrignoux
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Stephen Zepp
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Andrew C.M. McClintock
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Niklas Elmqvist
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project J C Lawrence
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Koster, Raph
- The MLI Project J C Lawrence
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Marc Eyrignoux
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: I'm moving again! JC Lawrence
- MUD Development Digest Dr. Cat
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities Chris Gray
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities coder@ibm.net
Ooo, ya shoulda known I couldn't let that one pass Greg.
On 02/02/98 at 09:45 AM, Greg Munt <greg@uni-corn.demon.co.uk> said: >On
Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Chris Gray wrote:
>> [Greg Munt:]
>> :My question: should mud administrators neccessarily feel any
>> :responsibilities, in the manner of which I have described above? Are they
>> :simply maintainers of the server and its database, or does their position
>> :*demand* that they take an interest in social issues too? Should players
>> :expect protection from social problems - such as harassment and
>> :victimisation - from administrators? If protection is not offered, are
>> :players reasonably entitled to deem the administrators unworthy? Do
>> :administrators have any responsibilities to the users of their software?
>>
>> Different people have different interests. Someone capable of programming
>> a MUD server, and of putting together a scenario, may have the social
>> skills of a wolverine. If the accepted answer to your question is 'yes',
>> then that person cannot do anything with the system they have created,
>> other than perhaps give it to someone else. In the free and open world
>> of the non-work-time internet, I don't believe that is acceptable. You
>> *want* social responsibility on the part of someone who has the technical
>> skills and opportunity to host a MUD, but I don't think you can *demand*
>> it. Doing so puts you in the same position as your harassers - putting
>> your own desires ahead of those of others.
>You suggest that to comply with my demands (yes, they *are* demands -
>explained later) an administrator must decide between not opening the
>mud, or giving it to someone else.
>I do not agree that these are the only options. Even the geekiest of
>coders has a social conscience, and a sense of morality.
Which morality you assume either matches or is similar in character to
your own.
>The
>legitimisation of harassment and victimisation is immoral.
The problem are the definitions of "harassment" and "victimisation" and
your evaluation of them. Activities which you consider such, are not
necessarily considered such by others. Similarly, activities you find
(and found) reprehensible, may well be considered quite acceptable if not
even laudable by others.
Your original description of the event was as follows:
--<cut>--
Yesterday I was harassed and victimised on a Circle derivative. (I wonder
what it is about me that attracts this behaviour? Anyway...) This
consisted of repetitively summoning me, repetitively killing me, creating
newbies with insulting names, and using them too, to kill me.
Additionally, they used their clients to spam me with tells for
approximately 20 minutes. There were about 5 or 6 people involved.
--<cut>--
I'm going to dissect lightly:
"Yesterday I was harassed and victimised on a Circle derivative."
I don't find this a problem. In a PK MUD I expect certain players at
various times to become targets, and to be pursued, possibly relentlessly,
to be ganged-up on, and to be slaughtered, belittled, and nullified in the
process. I don't consider this social behaviour, but I do find it a
direct and linear extenstion of the definition of a PK
combat==XP=vancement GoP game.
"This consisted of repetitively summoning me, repetitively killing me,
creating newbies with insulting names, and using them too, to kill me. "
On SHADES and MUD1 the standard method of PK was known as "S&S'ing", which
stood for "Summon & Slaying". The process was simple: get a good weapon,
go to a trap or maze location, summon the victim and then kill him. If
the victim successfully escaped or fled, then repeat until he was dead, or
logged off.
Of note also, was the fact that on SHADES a summoned character dropped all
treasure (any object worth points), with the result that another common
pattern was to locate a character on his way back to the King's Room with
a load of treasure, go to a room nearby, and summon him. Typically this
meant that you could nip in and grab the treasure he dropped befure he
re-oriented, and make your own run to the Kings Room with the treasure.
On SHADES one particular character ("Gniblick") was so good at both
procedures and at killing high level characters with low level characters,
that he made them his default methods of play (he was also an accomplished
general PK'er). He went from newbie to Wiz at least 3 times that I know
of making points ONLY from PKs, which was a very tough haul on SHADES (he
periodically had his Wiz characters purged from the game by the game-owner
for various other unrelated infractions). It was not uncommon for him to
log onto a full (many players) game only to have most of them immediately
log off as they noticed him.
None of these behaviours were generally found to be either reprehensible
or chastisable. All were somewhat encouraged. Gniblick in fact was
somewhat touted as a player predator, with such killer characters seen as
merely another barrier to overcome, much like any other puzzle, in playing
the game.
In one incident a character calling himself "Rhubarb" bugged me. We were
the only players on the game (not surprising, wee hours of the morning).
He started out by whining, complaining that he didn't know how to play,
asking for the solutions to puzzles, following me, getting in my way,
destroying key objects I needed, etc. Initially I gave him hints and
clues, and suggested areas he should look into. He merely increased the
volume and frequency of his pleas and started really getting in my way.
He also quickly became good enough at destroying key objects that I
thought it deliberate. I then quickly killed him down to newbie level (he
didn't take the hint and log off after the third PK in 5 minutes). He
then whined that I was being mean to him, and used newbie-only EQ to get
up to a level where he could kill, and then repetitively attempted to S&S
me. I killed him back down to newbie four or five times when he did this.
He didn't take the hint. I closed the game by waiting for the next reset
(it was a reset based game), and quickly collecting every key object
(objects needed to solve puzzles or access other parts of the map) in the
game and either destroying or hiding it. I then logged off, waited 45
minutes for the next reset, logged back on and repeated. On the third
repeat he was nowhere to be seem, and I continued to play normally. The
next night he appeared again. I killed him back down to newbie, and
closed the game. He never saw him again after that.
I relate this last instance because it is an auditable case in point, and
because it later came under scrutiny by the Wizzes and game owner when
Rhubarb accused me of cheating by using a Wiz character to get objects for
my mortal character. (I showed how I was able to get the sabre out of the
armoury without opening the armoury, and was absolved).
The insultingly names newbie characters is a new twist (at least one I
never saw on SHADES or MUD1). Tacky, juvenile, but expectable given fast
net connections rather than modem dial-up connections per-minute charges
for the phone use and a lengthy connect/login process.
"Additionally, they used their clients to spam me with tells for
approximately 20 minutes."
I presume this meant having one player use SPAMmed TELLs to hig your
connection while another player took advantage of that fact to your
detriment? Hurm. Cute. The server has no gag command or similar?
"There were about 5 or 6 people involved."
You upset a small gang. They postured, flaunted their genetalia, and
rattled your cage.
>It also has a
>huge potential to damage the society.
Which society? Why elect that society over others that may or have
formed?
>My solution: outlaw such activities.
_Who_ outlaws?
>Deal with aggressors in a predetermined manner.
"Play nice or else"?
>My opinion: these responsibilities are part of being an administrator. To
>lose the responsibilities, you must lose the administrative position.
Implicit in here is a "should", an arbitration of what is "correct"
without ever exposing or stating the criteria which define that
correctness. In the case and game you cite, who should enforce your
judgement on what is "right"? What "should" be done in the case that the
owners/admins don't do that?
>You also say that I cannot demand that administrators assume these
>responsibilities.
Anybody may demand. Few can require a response to their demands.
Hey! I demand you give me a winning lottery ticket!
>Again, I disagree. Demanding that administrators act
>responsibly is not putting my desires ahead of those of others; for,
>attempting to prevent harassment and victimisation benefits the society
>that has developed within the mud.
No, it benefits and furthers a particular form of society which you
prefer, and cripples the clique-ish tribal form (ala Lambert's reference)
which you appear to disparage.
>It benefits every member of that
>society.
Again, you assume that the purpose of a society is to ensure the benefit
of all of its members. How about a society whose purpose is to ensure the
benefit of a select few? It may be politically incorrect, but it is a
common societal form.
>A 'safe' society such as this increases the happiness factor of
>its members.
And the happiness of its population is _necessarily_ a goal for a society?
Is it a required goal for a society?
>This can only make the mud more successful, assuming that
>you consider success and popularity as synonymous.
Again, a definitional question. What is "success" for a particular game?
Popularity may or may not be it. It certainly is not for me -- its just
another metric.
>If you don't then I
>assume that you at least want any potential user of the mud to enjoy
>themselves?
Nooo, I want very specific users to enjoy their time on the MUD. The rest
may or may not as they wish or happen. Then again, I am not a populist.
>A 'safe' society aids in satisfying this goal: "We aim to encourage all
>users to have as much fun as they can, providing that this fun does not
>detrimentally affect that of others."
This would appear to be counter to a free PK game by definition. No?
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw@null.net
----------(*) Internet: coder@ibm.net
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... - Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities coder@ibm.net
- Administrative Responsibilities Chris Gray
- Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities coder@ibm.net
- Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities Adam Wiggins
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt