January 1998
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Stephen Zepp
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp coder@ibm.net
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Shawn Halpenny
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp JC Lawrence
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Shawn Halpenny
- Happy new year Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Mud-Dev FAQ Ling
- Mud-Dev FAQ Jon A. Lambert
- Mud-Dev FAQ JC Lawrence
- Mud-Dev FAQ Adam Wiggins
- Who's bugging who? : was- Wild West Jon A. Lambert
- my bio (was Mud-Dev FAQ) Mike Sellers
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Jon A. Lambert
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) coder@ibm.net
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) JC Lawrence
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) JC Lawrence
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Suomi Finland Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- OT: Suomi Finland ##Make Nylander
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Adam Wiggins
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Jon A. Lambert
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Jon A. Lambert
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Mike Sellers
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Journal of MUD Research, Vol. 3, No. 1 [TEXT] coder@ibm.net
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) Ling
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) JC Lawrence
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) Stephen Zepp
- threaded servers (was request for comments Mike Sellers
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Adam Wiggins
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Ling
- MUD Economy Brandon J. Rickman
- MUD Economy Marian Griffith
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy JC Lawrence
- MUD Economy Koster, Raph
- MUD Economy Matt Chatterley
- MUD Economy JC Lawrence
- MUD Economy Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Jobs available Koster, Raph
- OT: DCOM and RMI Jon A. Lambert
- OT: DCOM and RMI Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: DCOM and RMI Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: DCOM and RMI Miroslav Silovic
- OT: DCOM and RMI Alex Oren
- OT: DCOM and RMI Chris Gray
- request for comments Miroslav Silovic
- request for comments JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Matt Chatterley
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- request for comments JC Lawrence
- Text vs Video; Movies, Books & muds. Nathan Yospe
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Vadim Tkachenko
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) JC Lawrence
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Brandon J. Rickman
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Adam Wiggins
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Brandon J. Rickman
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Marian Griffith
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Chris Gray
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Adam Wiggins
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Unique items Richard Woolcock
- Unique items Jon A. Lambert
- Unique items Vadim Tkachenko
- Unique items Jon A. Lambert
- Unique items JC Lawrence
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Two Tiers Ling
- MUD Development Digest Dr. Cat
- FAQ Ling
- Clients Matt Chatterley
- Clients JC Lawrence
- Clients Shawn Halpenny
- Clients Matt Chatterley
- Event handling - some definitions Jon A. Lambert
- Event Handling Jon A. Lambert
- Simulations - was: 'A flamewar startingpoint.' Jon A. Lambert
- Formatting apology Stephen Zepp
- OT: Insane Wordwrapping Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- OT: Insane Wordwrapping Alex Oren
- Summary Marian Griffith
- Clients Andrew Wilson
- Vast areas in muds Ling
- Vast areas in muds John G.
- Vast areas in muds Nathan Yospe
- Vast areas in muds Mike Sellers
- Vast areas in muds John G.
- Vast areas in muds Nathan Yospe
- META: Web futures for the list JC Lawrence
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Chris Gray
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Chris Gray
- Graphical mud perspectives Richard Woolcock
- Graphical mud perspectives Nathan Yospe
- Graphical mud perspectives Richard Woolcock
- Graphical mud perspectives Koster, Raph
- Graphical mud perspectives Mike Sellers
- Graphical mud perspectives Koster, Raph
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads Nathan Yospe
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads Brandon Gillespie
- CORBA, RMI, threads Chris Gray
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads Brandon Gillespie
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads coder@ibm.net
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads Vadim Tkachenko
- CORBA, RMI, threads Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- CORBA, RMI, threads coder@ibm.net
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Greg Munt
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Marian Griffith
- Clients based on Netscape 5? coder@ibm.net
- OT? The impact of the web on muds Mike Sellers
- The Anti-Mac Interface JC Lawrence
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Jon Leonard
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Mike Sellers
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Chris Gray
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- VRML Becomes ISO/IEC International Standard (fwd) Nathan Yospe
- Arctic's Project? Brandon Cline
- Arctic's Project? Adam Wiggins
- Arctic's Project? Brandon Cline
- Arctic's Project? Chris Gray
- FAQ Marc Eyrignoux
- Java and Javascript Greg Munt
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript Jon Leonard
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Mike Sellers
- Java and Javascript J C Lawrence
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Travis Casey
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Sauron
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Alex Oren
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Ling
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Richard Woolcock
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Vadim Tkachenko
- MetaVoice, MetaFont JC Lawrence
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project Marc Eyrignoux
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Stephen Zepp
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Andrew C.M. McClintock
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Niklas Elmqvist
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project J C Lawrence
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Koster, Raph
- The MLI Project J C Lawrence
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Marc Eyrignoux
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: I'm moving again! JC Lawrence
- MUD Development Digest Dr. Cat
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
On 1 Feb 98 at 6:22, Greg Munt wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Jon A. Lambert wrote:
>
> > The most satisfying and moral solution to this problem is to not allow
> > "victims" on the mud.
>
> > A good administrator should take a proactive role in
> > banishing "victims" from the mud for their own protection.
>
> With the greatest respect, I find this to be a load of bollocks. I
> inadvertedly offended one person. About 5 of their friends sought to
> 'protect' them from me. "...[we are] spanking an impudent child..." was the
> phrase used by them to describe their actions.
With some variation, this is an altogether normal response, especially
from those living in an anarchic society. Where strong social controls
are not in place, tribal bonds become the focal point for execution
of mud "justice". It's a fascinating dynamic at work. I have been
deliberately on both sides of this tribal structure, as an insider
and outsider. Even on the same mud. :) There are consequences to
actions, even innocent ones in such societies. Offending a tribal
chief on a anarchic PK mud can be a terrifying and adrenaline-charged
experience.
I'm not a proponent of anarchy either in RL nor on my mud. However I do
understand the social interactions required of one in such a system.
There is an interesting question here. Why are so many muds like this?
Why do healthy and otherwise boring people in RL enjoy playing tin-pot
dictators, tyrants and generally offensive characters on many muds?
I think it is fairly simple really. Muds are often an extension of our
darker side. The anonymity offered provides a cover to explore these
areas. It's no accident that high heroic and villianous fantasy and
violence are the primary fodder of muds. I would find it highly amusing
to discover that the very polite and quiet accountant sitting next to
me on the subway could be none other than Thundarr the foul-mouthed and
insulting juvenile barbarian that repeatedly killed me and otherwise had
my number the night before.
And there is a counter question. Why, if muds are about fantasy and
alien worlds, due users and administrators seek to impose a morality
and social conventions on the game world which parallels real world
constructs and which may run counter to the mud's theme?
> The administrator, not wanting to be bothered by dealing with social
> problems, stated that they would do nothing about it.
You are describing a particular style of game here. Much akin to
someone running a Quake server. Certainly adminstration interference
in such a game is undesired by its fans. The problem here is that
these philosophies are not often made clear by an administrator. Likely
it's a result of little experience with different styles of muds. The
administrator may believe these things to be self-evident.
> What you are suggesting, is that in addition to the so-called victim
> suffering from harassment and victimisation, they must be banned from a
> mud from which they have procured many months (typically) of
> entertainment? A ban would:
>
> 1. Legitimise harassment.
How so? Clearly, if a mud has chosen to define the parameters of
activities that are considered acceptable or non-acceptable then
they have defined harassment, not legitimized it. Sadly many muds
don't attempt to define it. Simply saying "harassment is not
tolerated" is not a definitive statement of any merit or weight.
> 2. Legitimise victimisation.
On the contrary, I cannot think of any better way to de-legitimize
victimization. Banning victims is a strong statement against this.
> 3. Remove a (potentially great) source of entertainment from the victim.
The key word here is "potentially". The victim's source of entertainment
has become a source of pain. The victim has made a significant decision
in regards to their perception of the mud world that they cannot attain
that potential. Yes, most victims do choose to remain in the environments
that cause them the greatest discomfort. That does not alter the fact that
it is NOT in their best interest to remain in such an environment.
> 4. Cut off the victim from many of their friends that are regular users
> of the mud.
Not so. I believe I mentioned referring the victim to another mud.
Certainly their friends would choose to follow them and aid in their
recovery. Good friends would, wouldn't they?
> 5. Make the aggressors feel justified in their actions.
If such rules are notably absent, then they are certainly justified in
their actions. How could they not be? OTOH, if rules of conduct and
punishment are present, they are definately subject to them. Certainly you
are not advocating victimizing aggressors for rules of conduct which are
not present or downright alien to a particular mud environment?
> 6. Make the victim feel as if *they* were in the wrong.
Certainly a commonly held belief by victims. I find it quite distasteful
to be charged with the responsibilty of determining whether these feelings
are justified or not.
> 7. Add to the already large volumes of emotional trauma being suffered
> by the victim.
Removing them, removes the trauma immediately and effectively. I daresay
one would be stepping over lines of ethical conduct, should one wish to
engage in pop psychology with users of your system.
> 8. Turn a bad experience into hatred, a need for vengeance, even a
> desire for murder in real life. The administrator should help deal
> with the problem, rather than make it even worse.
OTOH, by not coddling the victim, an administrator forces them to become
proactive. Victims ALWAYS want someone else to deal with and acknowledge
their problems. Victimhood is a self-destructive phenomenon. It's a
poor understanding of cause and effect. The victim seeks to connect
effects they create directly with causes that others create. It is
an unhealthy belief that the victim is a mindless being with no self-will
or morality of their own. IMNSHO, religious instruction can be very
helpful for these individuals. The scope of which is outside the
boundaries of my mud world.
> Thought: perhaps
> my violent dislike for stock muds can be blamed on the fact that these
> experiences were first gained on a stock mud that I administrated.
> Maybe.
I would be hard pressed to make any quantifiable comparisons between human
behavior and codebase. For example, check out Mirkwood (see Mud Connector
for addie). It's a typical stock ROM with a good size player base that's
quite friendly to the feelings and happiness of its players. Suprisingly
several forms of controlled PK exist in this environment.
> Sometimes the need for vengeance can lead to good things - it led me to
> write my first scratch mud, for example. But sometimes, it cannot.
>
> > Remove the
> > victim from the environment and provide them with the URL of a good support
> > mud. That way they can share their feelings and recover with others who
> > have suffered similar abusive treatment. It's sad that many administrators
> > have so little understanding in this area. Many allow the victim to login
> > and continue to play thus delaying and crippling their recovery.
>
> This is the easy way out. The easy way is frequently not the best.
>
> I consider punishing the victim to be an immoral act. I cannot see how
> banning them is in any way 'the most satisfying and moral solution'. If
> anyone should be banned, it is the agressors.
>
The real punishment is to allow them to stay. There are dozens of muds
out there where one can find "happiness". An understanding administrator
will be quick to point out alternative avenues that would be more
entertaining for a given player. What you are really talking about here is
a "commonly held standard of rules, conduct, responsibility or government".
I don't think a one-size fits all approach is at all appropriate.
AnarchyMUD and CarebearMUD each have there own audience and function.
--
--/*\ Jon A. Lambert - TychoMUD Internet:jlsysinc@ix.netcom.com /*\--
--/*\ Mud Server Developer's Page <http://www.netcom.com/~jlsysinc> /*\--
--/*\ "Everything that deceives may be said to enchant" - Plato /*\-- - Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Chris Gray
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities coder@ibm.net
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities coder@ibm.net
- Administrative Responsibilities Chris Gray
- Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities Adam Wiggins
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt