January 1998
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Stephen Zepp
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp coder@ibm.net
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Shawn Halpenny
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp JC Lawrence
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Shawn Halpenny
- Happy new year Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Mud-Dev FAQ Ling
- Mud-Dev FAQ Jon A. Lambert
- Mud-Dev FAQ JC Lawrence
- Mud-Dev FAQ Adam Wiggins
- Who's bugging who? : was- Wild West Jon A. Lambert
- my bio (was Mud-Dev FAQ) Mike Sellers
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Jon A. Lambert
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) coder@ibm.net
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) JC Lawrence
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) JC Lawrence
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Suomi Finland Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- OT: Suomi Finland ##Make Nylander
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Adam Wiggins
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Jon A. Lambert
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Jon A. Lambert
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Mike Sellers
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Journal of MUD Research, Vol. 3, No. 1 [TEXT] coder@ibm.net
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) Ling
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) JC Lawrence
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) Stephen Zepp
- threaded servers (was request for comments Mike Sellers
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Adam Wiggins
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Ling
- MUD Economy Brandon J. Rickman
- MUD Economy Marian Griffith
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy JC Lawrence
- MUD Economy Koster, Raph
- MUD Economy Matt Chatterley
- MUD Economy JC Lawrence
- MUD Economy Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Jobs available Koster, Raph
- OT: DCOM and RMI Jon A. Lambert
- OT: DCOM and RMI Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: DCOM and RMI Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: DCOM and RMI Miroslav Silovic
- OT: DCOM and RMI Alex Oren
- OT: DCOM and RMI Chris Gray
- request for comments Miroslav Silovic
- request for comments JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Matt Chatterley
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- request for comments JC Lawrence
- Text vs Video; Movies, Books & muds. Nathan Yospe
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Vadim Tkachenko
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) JC Lawrence
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Brandon J. Rickman
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Adam Wiggins
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Brandon J. Rickman
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Marian Griffith
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Chris Gray
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Adam Wiggins
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Unique items Richard Woolcock
- Unique items Jon A. Lambert
- Unique items Vadim Tkachenko
- Unique items Jon A. Lambert
- Unique items JC Lawrence
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Two Tiers Ling
- MUD Development Digest Dr. Cat
- FAQ Ling
- Clients Matt Chatterley
- Clients JC Lawrence
- Clients Shawn Halpenny
- Clients Matt Chatterley
- Clients Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Clients Shawn Halpenny
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Caliban Tiresias Darklock wrote:
> Sometime at or around 03:52 PM 1/13/98 +0000, I personally witnessed
> Matt Chatterley jumping up to shout:
> >On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Shawn Halpenny wrote:
> >>
> >> I would consider a toggleable vi-mode for the command line
> >> practically a necessity. Actually, a number of useful features
> >> from shells would be nice:
> >
> >Hmm. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'vi' mode (one which
> >responds instantly to keypresses in a char-by-char mode rather
> >than typical line based approach?).
>
> I think what he's saying is he wants command mode and input mode --
> sort of like in vi, you're either inputting to the file (the MUD in
> this case) or controlling the editor (the client). I don't know that
> I'd completely agree with this idea, as it seems sort of backward;
> after all, you could probably do just as well with a separate command
> line altogether for the client. There's also the possibility that he
> wants the command line to have the same *syntax* as vi. If that's what
> he's asking for, then I have to kind of wonder what good the majority
> of vi's commands would be in a MUD client.
Anyone who has used bash or ksh in vi mode knows exactly what I'm referring
to. Essentially, take the majority of the single-line editing and movement
commands from vi and stick them into the command-line editing facilities of
the client.
> But here's my two cents. I think one of the biggest mistakes people
> make in saying 'this is what I want in a client' is to say they want
> this specific feature like this specific program, instead of saying
> what they want in terms of ability. Nobody wants a 'macro feature like
> EMACS' -- they want the ability to define and execute their own
> commands.
For the most part, I think you're correct. But in this case, I _do_ want
command line editing "like vi". I have progressed past (or just plain
bypassed?) the point of saying "I want a convenient way of entering commands."
> In a character-mode environment like UNIX or DOS, then yes,
> that probably means a macro feature, and may mean something very like
> EMACS. But in modern windowing environments like the Mac or Windows or
> X, that macro facility would likely bear *no* resemblance to EMACS,
> probably taking the form of a user-defined button bar with a 'command
> wizard' behind it. I think we get too bogged down in what we know and
> what we're used to, rather than letting the programmer take our needs
> and build them into a useful product...
That is to say, if you know how to use your favorite editor 'vi'
inside and out and there's nothing you can't do with it, wouldn't you
benefit from putting that same interface on the front of something
whose innards accomplish the same thing, but doesn't necessarily look
like what you're accustomed to? There's a learning curve whenever
you change the interface and if I don't have to learn what keys I
need to use to edit a command line, I can get into the game much more
quickly (perhaps that should read "conveniently") than if I have to
figure out that pressing "Ctrl-End" clears to the end-of-line instead
of "D". Sure, it's probably documented somewhere, but if I fire up that
client and discover off the bat that all my vi knowledge just magically
works, I don't even need to bother reading the dox.
Yes, we get bogged down in what we know and what we're used to. I am
perfectly content to let the programmer take my needs and build me a
useful product. If I told him "I want to create macros" and he comes
back with a GUI and a bunch of buttons, fine. But if I said "I want
vi command line editing" and he comes back with a GUI and buttons,
I'll never use the product.
> it's pretty common in my day
> job to go in to build a program for a customer, then see them point to
> some program and say "...and that's what we want it to do". If that's
> what you want it to do, then what are *we* here for? Go buy that.
> Obviously, that's NOT what you want it to do, so what is it missing?
>
> I think if we all just went 'I want to have this ability', it would go
> a lot better than 'I want the client to do this, this, and this'.
But what of the people who _do_ know precisely what they want? Are you
going to force them to throw out their old interface knowledge and make
them learn the new one?
> If
> you want the client to have a dual-mode command line, the question to
> be asked is *why* you want that. I think it's pretty clear that you
> want to be able to control the client itself from the same interface
> where you're controlling the MUD.
Nope. I don't give a whit if I can control the client from the same
command line I control the MUD. The dual mode is _only_ for editing the
line. I'm either in edit mode where what I type is inserted into the line,
or in command mode where I can move about the line, delete words,
sentences, or what not. I am perfectly content to have to move the mouse
if I need to select some menu, but I want my chief interface to the MUD to
be through that command line. All the GUI gives me is client control
options. That's what _I_ want. That's probably not what some newbie
player to that MUD wants.
> You don't want to switch windows or
> futz with a mouse or anything, you want to enter your commands right
> there on the command line where you type the MUD commands, and you
> don't want the client intercepting your MUD commands or your client
> commands getting sent to the MUD. There are a lot of ways to handle
> that, and a dual mode command line is only one of them. My immediate
> thought is to use the / key, as in you type '/client-command' to
> execute one client command in a series of MUD commands, or just '/' to
> enter a sort of client command shell -- everything is a client command
> until this shell is exited or turned off. This could be done by
> several
> methods; '//' is sensible, as is another '/', a '\', '/exit' or just
> 'exit', or 'quit', 'end', a period on a line all by itself, a
> control-D, etc. I selected the '/' because that's what TinyFugue uses,
> and that's what most of the really serious MUD players I run into are
> using, but it's quite simple to make this a configurable parameter.
> The
> mechanics themselves are irrelevant, provided when you hand it to
> someone for testing they find that it's easy to work with and doesn't
> take a year to adjust to. But I think Shawn's saying he wants a robust
> command set in the client more than anything.
That is almost entirely correct (or at least I want to be given the
primitives to script my own commands) except you left out the all-important
vi-mode editing bit. Would that be a make-or-break,
do-I-use-or-scrap-this-client sort of thing? Probably not. But every day
I sit down in front of my terminal at work, the nominal 5 shells I
have open are all in vi mode. If I don't have to do a mental context
switch when I decide to MUD, all the better.
--
Shawn Halpenny - Clients coder@ibm.net
- Clients Shawn Halpenny
- Clients Shawn Halpenny
- Clients Matt Chatterley
- Event handling - some definitions Jon A. Lambert
- Event Handling Jon A. Lambert
- Simulations - was: 'A flamewar startingpoint.' Jon A. Lambert
- Formatting apology Stephen Zepp
- OT: Insane Wordwrapping Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- OT: Insane Wordwrapping Alex Oren
- Summary Marian Griffith
- Clients Andrew Wilson
- Vast areas in muds Ling
- Vast areas in muds John G.
- Vast areas in muds Nathan Yospe
- Vast areas in muds Mike Sellers
- Vast areas in muds John G.
- Vast areas in muds Nathan Yospe
- META: Web futures for the list JC Lawrence
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Chris Gray
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Chris Gray
- Graphical mud perspectives Richard Woolcock
- Graphical mud perspectives Nathan Yospe
- Graphical mud perspectives Richard Woolcock
- Graphical mud perspectives Koster, Raph
- Graphical mud perspectives Mike Sellers
- Graphical mud perspectives Koster, Raph
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads Nathan Yospe
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads Brandon Gillespie
- CORBA, RMI, threads Chris Gray
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads Brandon Gillespie
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads coder@ibm.net
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads Vadim Tkachenko
- CORBA, RMI, threads Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- CORBA, RMI, threads coder@ibm.net
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Greg Munt
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Marian Griffith
- Clients based on Netscape 5? coder@ibm.net
- OT? The impact of the web on muds Mike Sellers
- The Anti-Mac Interface JC Lawrence
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Jon Leonard
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Mike Sellers
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Chris Gray
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- VRML Becomes ISO/IEC International Standard (fwd) Nathan Yospe
- Arctic's Project? Brandon Cline
- Arctic's Project? Adam Wiggins
- Arctic's Project? Brandon Cline
- Arctic's Project? Chris Gray
- FAQ Marc Eyrignoux
- Java and Javascript Greg Munt
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript Jon Leonard
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Mike Sellers
- Java and Javascript J C Lawrence
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Travis Casey
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Sauron
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Alex Oren
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Ling
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Richard Woolcock
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Vadim Tkachenko
- MetaVoice, MetaFont JC Lawrence
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project Marc Eyrignoux
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Stephen Zepp
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Andrew C.M. McClintock
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Niklas Elmqvist
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project J C Lawrence
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Koster, Raph
- The MLI Project J C Lawrence
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Marc Eyrignoux
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: I'm moving again! JC Lawrence
- MUD Development Digest Dr. Cat
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities Chris Gray
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities coder@ibm.net
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities coder@ibm.net
- Administrative Responsibilities Chris Gray
- Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities Adam Wiggins
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt