January 1998
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Stephen Zepp
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp coder@ibm.net
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Shawn Halpenny
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp JC Lawrence
- Mail from mud Zoran's final Imp Shawn Halpenny
- Happy new year Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Mud-Dev FAQ Ling
- Mud-Dev FAQ Jon A. Lambert
- Mud-Dev FAQ JC Lawrence
- Mud-Dev FAQ Adam Wiggins
- Who's bugging who? : was- Wild West Jon A. Lambert
- my bio (was Mud-Dev FAQ) Mike Sellers
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Jon A. Lambert
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) coder@ibm.net
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) JC Lawrence
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) JC Lawrence
- request for comments (was: Mud-Dev FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Suomi Finland Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- OT: Suomi Finland ##Make Nylander
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Marian Griffith
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Adam Wiggins
[Ola Fosheim Grøstad:]
> Marian Griffith <gryphon@iaehv.nl> wrote:
> >> Reason being, IMHO, that "correct behavior" is such a vauge term, and
> >> depending on the player's culture/country of origin will vary greatly
> >> from player to player.
> >
> >I am sure that it is possible to find something that (almost) everybody
> >can agree on. However it is practically impossible for the players to
> >enforce anything. They have no control over the game, or the way it is
> >working. Only the people who do the coding and the people who make sure
> >it is running can do anything about enforcing things. I think they have
> >to provide safeguards against admin abuse of private information, but I
> >see no way how the players can enforce that.
>
> I never expected the majority on the list to agree with me, simply
> because the list is heavly biased.
What you mean to say is that you already knew that many members of the
list had a different view from you. Saying 'biased' seems to imply
that this view is somehow unreasonable.
> Actually I knew the attitudes in
> advance. I am not going to bring up all the arguments though, because
> that would involve a lot of theory, philosophy and deductions.
> Unfortunatly the attitudes are heavly colored by Taylorism (scientific
> management guy) and the belief that ownership of a system implies a
> right to control the people acting within the system. Spoke to a
> norwegian friend working in the US today, he confirmed my observation
> (along with american professionals' observation), the attitude is that
> the employer "owns" the employee much more there than over here. (I
> know this is different in some game houses)
This is part of the reason I haven't responded to many of your posts;
nationalistic setiments tend to put me off. (Certainly this isn't the
first time this list has witnessed heavy amounts of US-bashing, though.)
Anyhow, I scarcely see how the above applies. The members of this list
are spread far and wide. The list itself is not based in the US. The
US members are not in the majority. How, then, would the attitudes of
those in the US have a significant impact? I think you're argument here
would hold more credibility if you insulting England for a while, I'm
sure that there's something wrong with the populace there you could
pick apart.
On to the actual argument:
> the employer "owns" the employee much more there than over here. (I
> know this is different in some game houses)
The idea of ownership never enters into the issue that I've ever
seen. It's like this: the company decides how it wants to run itself,
within the realm of the law. Its policies are made clear from the outset.
People can choose to work for them, or not. If their policies suck,
no one will work for them, and they will go out of business. The result
is that the companies that treat their companies the best get the best
pick of potential employees. Motorola is an example of this.
This is freedom. One can run ones business how one likes, within reason.
Employees can choose what businesses they want to work for. It may
not be the best system, but it is how it works here, and I'm
completely happy with it. For the same reason, I will run my mud this
way. If this lack of strictness causes people to leave my mud, then
I will not have any players.
> Anyway, the issue is not what users should or can enforce, but first
> and foremost: What is a good design?
I strongly disagree that putting in code barriers to logging is
'good design'. First of all - how is this different than just *not*
logging things? Either way I'm making a conscious choice. Putting
in a code barrier seems to imply that I'm trying to stop myself from
doing something I really want to do, like a smoker hiding their cigarettes.
Secondly, is it important to enforce morals in the code? I may think
stealing is morally wrong, but I let players do it anyhow. I may
think deception is also morally wrong, but I don't plan to check the
logs to find out who has been lieing so that I can siteban them.
> Second: exessive logging is
> immoral, in my view, independant of what shade of western culture you
> live in.
In your view. It's never immoral, in my view, because I just don't
care about it. As an administrator it's a tool, albient one that
takes a lot of disk space. Paging through a zillion pages of boring
chatter is not fun to me. As a player I also don't care one way or
another. The idea that someone might be watching me doesn't change
my actions. I feel fully justified in everything I do, all the time.
If this is ever not the case - if I ever find myself questioning my
actions because I'm afraid someone might see - then I think my action
needs to some reconsideration in the first place.
Thus, I will be catering to players like myself. This is no surprise
to anyone, I'm sure, since this is exactly what we all do.
> The cognitive psychologist Norman calls most people's view of how the
> human mind works for "folk psychology". "folk psychology" is in the
> best case misleading or incomplete, I am tempted to say: wrong.
>
> I guess this along with the natural "it is my system, I don't want to
> be made responsible for what I do with it" is causing the current
> position.
I don't see the application of the first.
As to the second, the view is actually, 'Here it is. Do what thou
wilt.' It has nothing to do with responsibility. You seem to think
there is something about it being a communication system that makes
the owner more responsible. Okay, I don't agree, but - what is it
that makes them required (morally) to protect privacy, but *not*
required, morally, to try to restrict criminials from using their system
to set up drug deals? Other than, of course, that these two things
are contridictory. By the same token, I guess the admin of an FTP
site is not allowed to scan for pirated software on his system, as
he'd be looking into his users private directories? This is, IMO,
identical. The owner of the site does, indeed, own the hard drive on
which it resides, and he can do with it as he pleases. Do you not
agree with this, either? If an admin finds that his hard drive is
being dominated by a huge directory called "MY_WAR3Z", is it morally
incorrect of him to investigate? What if he deletes it without looking
at it? What if he lowers the owners disk quota to the point that the
file gets auto-deleted? What if he lowers all users' disk quotas
simutaneously?
I could go on, but I think it's clear - it's impossible to administer
something which you are allowed to control due to morallity.
> That aside, it is the owner's (ultimatly "owner of the company")
> responsibility to make sure (enforce) that his system's moral is both
> legal and user friendly.
I don't have any problem with this at all. However, *I* get to define
are moral and user friendly. (Legal is normally left up to my
government.) I believe that command-line interfaces are user-friendly,
so I use them. I believe that logging is perfectly moral, so I will
feel free to use it whenever I like.
Side note: our system has never had logging, as I can't think of any
clear use for it (I have no desire to admin social issues like harassment,
which is what it is mainly useful for), and I don't feel like devoting the
disk space. However I never thought about it such as the way that
JC has it set up, which makes it actually a gameplay element. I find
this extremely cool, and obviously would have no problem with playing
on a mud with time-travel.
> I'm not sure what ACM's ethical guidelines
> says, but they are probably too weak to be useful (they are the result
> of a least-common-denominator process)
I see - I'm supposed to conform to someone else's morals with my system?
Perhaps I should publish a set of guidelines which include "no GUIs
allowed!" in order to force people to create the sorts of games that
I like to play? - Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Jon A. Lambert
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Jon A. Lambert
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Mike Sellers
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) JC Lawrence
- Totally OT... (Or is it?) (yes it is ;) Adam Wiggins
- Journal of MUD Research, Vol. 3, No. 1 [TEXT] coder@ibm.net
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) Ling
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) JC Lawrence
- World Seeding (was Task Parsing) Stephen Zepp
- threaded servers (was request for comments Mike Sellers
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Adam Wiggins
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Ling
- MUD Economy Brandon J. Rickman
- MUD Economy Marian Griffith
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy Shawn Halpenny
- MUD Economy JC Lawrence
- MUD Economy Koster, Raph
- MUD Economy Matt Chatterley
- MUD Economy JC Lawrence
- MUD Economy Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Jobs available Koster, Raph
- OT: DCOM and RMI Jon A. Lambert
- OT: DCOM and RMI Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: DCOM and RMI Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: DCOM and RMI Miroslav Silovic
- OT: DCOM and RMI Alex Oren
- OT: DCOM and RMI Chris Gray
- request for comments Miroslav Silovic
- request for comments JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Matt Chatterley
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Event handling (was: request for comments) JC Lawrence
- Event handling (was: request for comments) Vadim Tkachenko
- request for comments JC Lawrence
- Text vs Video; Movies, Books & muds. Nathan Yospe
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Vadim Tkachenko
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) JC Lawrence
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Brandon J. Rickman
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Adam Wiggins
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Brandon J. Rickman
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Marian Griffith
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Chris Gray
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) Adam Wiggins
- Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online) coder@ibm.net
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Unique items Richard Woolcock
- Unique items Jon A. Lambert
- Unique items Vadim Tkachenko
- Unique items Jon A. Lambert
- Unique items JC Lawrence
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed PMDF e-Mail Interconnect
- Two Tiers Ling
- MUD Development Digest Dr. Cat
- FAQ Ling
- Clients Matt Chatterley
- Clients JC Lawrence
- Clients Shawn Halpenny
- Clients Matt Chatterley
- Event handling - some definitions Jon A. Lambert
- Event Handling Jon A. Lambert
- Simulations - was: 'A flamewar startingpoint.' Jon A. Lambert
- Formatting apology Stephen Zepp
- OT: Insane Wordwrapping Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- OT: Insane Wordwrapping Alex Oren
- Summary Marian Griffith
- Clients Andrew Wilson
- Vast areas in muds Ling
- Vast areas in muds John G.
- Vast areas in muds Nathan Yospe
- Vast areas in muds Mike Sellers
- Vast areas in muds John G.
- Vast areas in muds Nathan Yospe
- META: Web futures for the list JC Lawrence
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Chris Gray
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Jon A. Lambert
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- OT: Socket programming - platform specific Chris Gray
- Graphical mud perspectives Richard Woolcock
- Graphical mud perspectives Nathan Yospe
- Graphical mud perspectives Richard Woolcock
- Graphical mud perspectives Koster, Raph
- Graphical mud perspectives Mike Sellers
- Graphical mud perspectives Koster, Raph
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads Nathan Yospe
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads Brandon Gillespie
- CORBA, RMI, threads Chris Gray
- CORBA, RMI, threads Marc Eyrignoux
- CORBA, RMI, threads Brandon Gillespie
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads coder@ibm.net
- CORBA, RMI, threads s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- CORBA, RMI, threads Vadim Tkachenko
- CORBA, RMI, threads Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- CORBA, RMI, threads coder@ibm.net
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Greg Munt
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Vadim Tkachenko
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Chris Gray
- Clients based on Netscape 5? Marian Griffith
- Clients based on Netscape 5? coder@ibm.net
- OT? The impact of the web on muds Mike Sellers
- The Anti-Mac Interface JC Lawrence
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Jon Leonard
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Mike Sellers
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Chris Gray
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- 3D graphics (Was: The impact of the web on muds) coder@ibm.net
- VRML Becomes ISO/IEC International Standard (fwd) Nathan Yospe
- Arctic's Project? Brandon Cline
- Arctic's Project? Adam Wiggins
- Arctic's Project? Brandon Cline
- Arctic's Project? Chris Gray
- FAQ Marc Eyrignoux
- Java and Javascript Greg Munt
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript Jon Leonard
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Ben Greear
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Mike Sellers
- Java and Javascript J C Lawrence
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Travis Casey
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Sauron
- Java and Javascript Jon A. Lambert
- Java and Javascript Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Java and Javascript Alex Oren
- Java and Javascript Chris Gray
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- Java and Javascript Matt Chatterley
- Java and Javascript coder@ibm.net
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Ling
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Richard Woolcock
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Vadim Tkachenko
- MetaVoice, MetaFont JC Lawrence
- MetaVoice, MetaFont Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project Marc Eyrignoux
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Stephen Zepp
- The MLI Project coder@ibm.net
- The MLI Project Travis Casey
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Andrew C.M. McClintock
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Niklas Elmqvist
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Ling
- The MLI Project Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The MLI Project J C Lawrence
- The MLI Project Chris Gray
- The MLI Project Koster, Raph
- The MLI Project J C Lawrence
- The MLI Project Vadim Tkachenko
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Marc Eyrignoux
- Races and stuff (was: FAQ) Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: I'm moving again! JC Lawrence
- MUD Development Digest Dr. Cat
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities Chris Gray
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities coder@ibm.net
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt
- Administrative Responsibilities Jon A. Lambert
- Administrative Responsibilities coder@ibm.net
- Administrative Responsibilities Chris Gray
- Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities Mike Sellers
- Administrative Responsibilities Adam Wiggins
- Administrative Responsibilities Greg Munt