June 1997
- UNSUBSCRIBE Dan Armstrong
- Resets, langs, and quests ashen
- [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Jeff Kesselman
- [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP: TIime to define Jeff Kesselman
- RP: TIime to define Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...] Matt Chatterley
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...] Marian Griffith
- Administrative posting coder@ibm.net
- Administrative posting Jeff Kesselman
- Administrative posting coder@ibm.net
- PKilling (was Life) Brandon Gillespie
- A quick apology... Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The reality of constant combat?? Ling
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Huibai
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Adam Wiggins
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jon A. Lambert
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based coder@ibm.net
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Marian Griffith
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Miroslav Silovic
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based coder@ibm.net
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Miroslav Silovic
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Life Jamie Norrish
- Life Ling
- Life ashen
- Life Matt Chatterley
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Life clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Life Marian Griffith
- Life Adam Wiggins
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Life clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan Adam Wiggins
- RP/PG examples Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP/PG examples Jeff Kesselman
- RP/PG examples Adam Wiggins
- RP/PG examples Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP/PG examples Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Ling
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Matt Chatterley
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Brandon Cline
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD coder@ibm.net
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
In <33bb270e.27883839@relay.mnsinc.com>, on 06/26/97
at 08:58 AM, caliban@darklock.com (Caliban Tiresias Darklock) said:
>On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:22:51 PST8PDT, clawrenc@cup.hp.com wrote:
>>In <33ad0a65.1847835@relay.mnsinc.com>, on 06/20/97
>> at 07:29 PM, caliban@darklock.com (Caliban Tiresias Darklock) said:
>>
>>>This illustration is slightly flawed as I present it, in that the
>>>game system and game world are rarely a clearly defined pair of
>>>separate entities, and on many occasions the programming language and
>>>user command set are subject to significant crossover.
>>
>>It also avoids the various forms of hardcoded games (cf DGD, Diku)
>>where there is no internal programming language: changing the game
>>requires recompiling the game kernel. Such servers are surprisingly
>>common.
>Since the aim here is to create a flexible server which does NOT
>require recompilation to effect changes, this option is completely
>unacceptable by definition.
Depending on your "here", that's not necessarily a shared goal.
You're presuming a commonality here that doesn't exist. Its my goal,
but its not Nathan's, or Chris Gray's that I know of.
>>You can try and build a system which is leveragable into different
>>systems, but the result is that you don't define the current system
>>with sufficient detail to actually define the precise behaviours with
>>the result...
> [snip]
>>...that you end up here (from my last para).
>Are you saying there is no middle ground here which would be an
>acceptable compromise? I find that a dubious claim. On the other
>hand, no one out there seems to have many ideas.
I believe so, yes. Its a question not of design or middle grounds,
but of implicit interdependancies in any sytem which explicitly
prevent that from being easily leveraged to another system with
different dependancies.
>>Not a lot I disagree with so far. Most of it is largely unarguable --
>>essentially a reporting of what you have observed and your conclusions
>>there from. What is missing is a proposed interpretation and
>>addressing of your observations.
>
>I'm being deliberately cagey on the matter, because I've been rather
>quickly pounced on as a codebase bigot and/or someone who doesn't
>know what he's talking about every time I've tried to discuss it
>previously. I still haven't heard more than two or three people
>express an interest in participating in the discussion, and all of
>them seem to be of the opinion that the concept has merit but it will
>never work. I really don't feel like laying out a lot of work only to
>be told by two or three people that I'm just dreaming and a server
>like this can't even be written. The end result of such a thing is
>likely to be either I write a server that everyone hates, because the
>opinions of two or three people are not statistically valid, or I
>don't write a server and people smirk and say 'yeah, right, *sure* it
>can be done'.
You're at the edge fo the cliff. You can either jump, or go back and
ever after wonder what would have happened had you jumped. I can't
fairly encourage you. I don't see that the field is in a state where
it can support this sort of effort. It will be, but the standards
support, or possible support, is not there yet. To create the sort of
commonality, or shared base that you are describing you need
standards, or at least a field which is capable of supporting a
standard. Those standards don't exist, and won't exist until the
field has matured significantly further than it has now. Sure the
FTN/FIDO-style FOSSIL driver is a great model -- but they had a
simpler problem to resolve, with the prior knowledge that the system
only needed to run on single-tasking, non-re-entrant, non-threading,
interrupt driven architectures. They had a simple shared problem with
precise boundaries. MUD's don't have that level of simplicity yet.
Sure, they might if the stock MUD convergence goes much futher, but
the automatic safe assumptions aren't there yet to support a standards
effort.
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw@null.net
(Contractor) Internet: coder@ibm.net
---------------(*) Internet: clawrenc@cup.hp.com
...Honorary Member Clan McFUD -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... - RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Matt Chatterley
- Computers can't.... Jeff Kesselman
- Computers can't.... Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Computers can't.... Jeff Kesselman
- Combat and Roleplay Jeff Kesselman
- Combat and Roleplay clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- Learning Todd Lair
- Message problems with this list coder@ibm.net
- Greetings Koster, Raph
- Another Introduction... Travis S Casey
- Lorry's document on wizard-hood clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Lorry's document on wizard-hood Jeff Kesselman
- Lorry's document on wizard-hood clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Threaded rand() Ling
- I have no words and I must design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- I have no words and I must design Adam Wiggins
- TSR has been bought. Jeff Kesselman
- DESIGN: The Physics of Magic coder@ibm.net
- over the shoudler view Jeff Kesselman
- Re:[DESIGN] the physcis of magic. Jeff Kesselman
- RIME/Fido nolstalgia Adam Wiggins
- a definition of role-playing Travis S Casey
- [RP] The thoughful player Jeff Kesselman
- web archive for MUD Design List ? Dmitri Kondratiev
- web archive for MUD Design List ? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- web archive for MUD Design List ? Dmitri Kondratiev
- web archive for MUD Design List ? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- [WotC TSR buyout] WotC Survey Jeff Kesselman
- The laws of probability coder@ibm.net
- The laws of probability Chris Gray
- The laws of probability coder@ibm.net
- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The laws of probability Adam Wiggins
- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) coder@ibm.net
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Nathan Yospe
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Simon Miller
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Matt Chatterley
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jon A. Lambert
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Simon Miller
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- Physical Space Representation Mathue Moyer
- Physical Space Representation coder@ibm.net
- "From Kansas to Oz" Chris Gray
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "From Kansas to Oz" Jeff Kesselman
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "From Kansas to Oz" Jeff Kesselman
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- "From Kansas to Oz" coder@ibm.net
- "From Kansas to Oz" Brandon Gillespie
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Text output [was "short" Introductory Message (fwd)] Matt Chatterley
- (fwd) RESEARCH: Why do you admin a Mud? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Genuinely brief intro Dr. Cat
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- Commercial interests and rules clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Matt Chatterley
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- Re: Jeff Kesselman
- The Difference between.. Jeff Kesselman
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- The Difference between.. clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The Difference between.. Jeff Kesselman
- (subject missing) mud-dev@null.net
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- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
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- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Marian Griffith
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Martin Keegan
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Martin Keegan
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jeff Kesselman
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Brandon Cline
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Jeff Kesselman
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Chris Gray
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Brandon Gillespie
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Jon A. Lambert
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Nathan Yospe
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions Huibai
- Alright... IF your gonna do Disease... Jon A. Lambert
- thread splitting Alex Oren
- thread splitting coder@ibm.net
- thread splitting coder@ibm.net
- thread splitting Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Senses & geographical events Wout Mertens
- Senses & geographical events Chris Gray
- Senses & geographical events clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Additions to sensory planes Wout Mertens
- Nation of shopkeepers Martin Keegan
- Nation of shopkeepers Huibai
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Brandon Van Every
- Nation of shopkeepers Jon A. Lambert
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Alex Oren
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Chris Gray