June 1997
- UNSUBSCRIBE Dan Armstrong
- Resets, langs, and quests ashen
- [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Jeff Kesselman
- [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP: TIime to define Jeff Kesselman
- RP: TIime to define Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...] Matt Chatterley
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...] Marian Griffith
- Administrative posting coder@ibm.net
- Administrative posting Jeff Kesselman
- Administrative posting coder@ibm.net
- PKilling (was Life) Brandon Gillespie
- A quick apology... Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The reality of constant combat?? Ling
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Huibai
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Adam Wiggins
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jon A. Lambert
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Shawn Halpenny <malachai@iname.com> wrote:
>Brandon J. Rickman wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Shawn Halpenny <malachai@iname.com> wrote:
>> >An aside--given:
>> >Room R at time t=0.
>> >An earthquake is scheduled to occur in R at t+5.
>> >Room R is spoofed at t+2, creating R' which now exists in lieu of R.
>> >Time t+5 arrives, the earthquake occurs. Are the effects of the
>> > earthquake applied to R, R', or both? Generalized: are any
>> > actions occuring on R to be duplicated on R' and vice versa?
>>
>> This is a great example of a particularly bad (and quite common) way of
>> non-atomic coding. "Scheduling" an event in this case is like declaring
>> a prophecy: "There will be an earthquake in 5 ticks!"
>
>I disagree. Every event is a prophecy since every event must be scheduled,
>else nothing ever happens (events scheduled to happen immediately may be
>exempt). The objects affected, however, usually have no idea
>about the impending event, nor do they need to.
>
>And why do you consider it non-atomic?
It is non-atomic because the state of the universe might have (most likely
has) changed since the event was first scheduled. On execution the event
is now responsible for comparing its image of the universe with the real
universe (recognizing that R' has replaced R, for example). Put bluntly,
it may in fact be impossible for a "prophecied" event to conform itself
to the changed universe. It happens all the time. How many times have
you seen this:
> north
The Bar
Ratz is behind the counter, absently rubbing teh counter with a grimy rag.
> east
The Back Room
> up
Second Floor
Ratz waves to you from behind the counter. "Hey, Shoehorn, haven't seen
you around lately."
The problem isn't that Shoehorn walked out of the room before Ratz
greeted him. How about this:
The Bar
Ratz is behind the counter, absently rubbing teh counter with a grimy rag.
> wield knife
You wield the butcher knife
> remove the arm of Ratz with knife
You chop off Ratz's right arm. He looks pissed.
Ratz waves to you from behind the counter. "Hey, Shoehorn, haven't seen
you around lately."
Or this:
The Bar
Ratz is behind the counter, absently rubbing teh counter with a grimy rag.
The bar explodes into a brilliant fireball. You have died.
Ratz waves to you from behind the counter. "Hey, Shoehorn, haven't seen
you around lately."
Maybe you want to play this game of "what if" and program in all the special
cases you can find. But once you start you can never stop.
(The typo was intentional.)
>> I'll go out on a limb and claim that events must always immedidately
>> originate from objects. There should be no indirection of events, such
>> that an event might be scheduled by an object but actually be originated
>> as a server action.
>
>I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that for the earthquake to
>occur, the evaluation of the decision (yes, make earthquake, no,
>don't) should occur and immediately after that there either is or is
>not an earthquake? I.e. there is no concept of having an earthquake
>occur in 5 seconds?
There is no _guarantee_ of having an earthquake occur in 5 seconds. You
can delay the evaluation of the decision for 5 seconds, and if the conditions
are right cause the earthquake. The event, if it occurs, originates from
the same object that originally delayed the evaluation. But if you pass your
earthquake event on to some cleverly coded scheduler your event has
become a kind of prophecy.
If this was a magically created earthquake we can make this problem part
of the risks of casting big magics. If Bubba cast the earthquake spell, but
the location for the spell has already been destroyed, where does all that
magical energy go? If we evaluate the decision immediately before the
event, the spell will no longer have a target and maybe it strikes Bubba
instead. Or maybe it goes off in Detroit.
To go even further: Let us say that casting an earthquake spell
has two parts: summoning the magical energy/Earth forces, and directing
those forces into the earth with destructive intent. The longer you wait
before directing the forces, the more forces you can gather and the
stronger the earthquake will be. Bubba is only a level 5 wizard and only
knows how to create small earthquakes. His earthquake spell takes 30 ticks
to complete: 25 ticks to gather the forces, a 4 tick pause (a little margin
for casting errors), and 1 tick to start the quake. His spell creates two
events, the first event of a certain duration (gathering the forces), the
second intended to occur at t+30 ticks. The earthquake might take a certain
amount of time as well, but I'm not worrying about that here.
During the 25 ticks that the forces are gathering, other things are
happening in the universe. Someone might siphon off some or all of those
forces, meaning a less powerful earthquake. Or Bubba might lose his
concentration and the earthquake goes off early. Or someone funnels extra
forces into the spell, creating an earthquake beyond Bubba's control.
The "success" of Bubba's casting is still in doubt until we get to that
t+30 marker or the spell is otherwise perverted. Both the originator
(quoted text below) and any indirection (below) of the event are in
fact crucial to the actual performance of the event.
>The earthquake was likely scheduled by whatever code was responsible
>for handling the success of Bubba's earthquake spell, but the
>originator of the event doesn't actually matter. The indirection
>doesn't matter either. The event and its (spoof) target can be
>considered independently of all other elements in the game (excepting
>the non-spoof target). I think the earthquake must be propagated to
>both R and R', since (assuming the effects of the quake persist
>beyond the life of R') when R' is terminated, you can't have the
>effects of the earthquake disappear as well. The +5 delta I
>mentioned above has nothing to do with how the event is processed,
>but was intended only to show that the spoofing, the earthquake, and
>the aftereffects did not occur at the same time. I could have
>synonymously said: 'Earthquake occurs in spoofed-room R'. If R' is
>destroyed before the effects of the earthquake are completely gone
>(i.e. the fissures in the earth, etc.), does R show the same
>effects?' To which the answer, I think, is "yes, definitely."
You don't consider the effects of the earthquake as just another spoof of
the original R? If the effects of the earthquake are permanent, why don't
we "flatten" R" (the earthquake spoof) and R?
Hm, if we have R' spoofing R:
R - R'
And the earthquake is a spoof R" of R:
R - R"
We have to relate R' and R". Maybe we need an parenthetical operator?
(R - R") - R' or possibly (R - R') - R"
This is becoming messy and confusing. Never mind.
>> I'm thinking cold-like frobs provide a way to solve this. Otherwise a
>> tighter way of relating the spoofed object to the object of spoofing is
>> needed. Then R gets the event and passes it on to it's spoof. This
>> would need quite a bit of garbage collection.
>
>I know not of frobs, and in the stuff above don't see where any garbage
>collection comes in.
R' is a spoof of R. R'' is a spoof of R'. R' has an event scheduled.
The condition causing R' goes away. Do we pass R''s event to R'', to R, or
dump it? If R' is destroyed, does R'' become a direct spoof of R, or do
we destroy R'' also? If we destroy R...
Frobs are (someone will correct me) instances of objects that can be passed
around like data. Who has them besides ColdC?
- B Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based coder@ibm.net
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Marian Griffith
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Miroslav Silovic
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based coder@ibm.net
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Miroslav Silovic
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- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
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- common server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- common server design Martin Keegan
- common server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- common server design Cynbe ru Taren
- common server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- common server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Re: Jeff Kesselman
- The Difference between.. Jeff Kesselman
- The Difference between.. Adam Wiggins
- The Difference between.. Jeff Kesselman
- The Difference between.. clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The Difference between.. Jeff Kesselman
- (subject missing) mud-dev@null.net
- Neighborhoods (was room-based v coord-based) S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Neighborhoods (was room-based v coord-based) Brandon J. Rickman
- Pen-and-paper and Computer-based systems Alex Oren
- User Interface (was: RP=MUSH/PG=MUD) Shawn Halpenny
- Rumours Marian Griffith
- Levels and XP Huibai
- Levels and XP Martin Keegan
- Levels and XP Simon Miller
- Levels and XP Huibai
- Levels and XP Nathan Yospe
- Levels and XP Matt Chatterley
- Meta clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- non pk dealing with conflicts Marian Griffith
- Integrating PK Brandon Cline
- Integrating PK Huibai
- Integrating PK Brandon Cline
- Integrating PK Huibai
- Integrating PK Nathan Yospe
- Integrating PK Cynbe ru Taren
- Integrating PK Chris Gray
- Integrating PK clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Integrating PK Jon A. Lambert
- noise Alex Oren
- Neighborhood watch clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Neighborhood watch Nathan Yospe
- Neighborhood watch Chris Gray
- Neighborhood watch Nathan Yospe
- Neighborhood watch Brandon J. Rickman
- Neighborhood watch clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Neighborhood watch Chris Gray
- Neighborhood watch clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Mob AI Brandon Cline
- Hardcore server design Alex Oren
- Hardcore server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- [NOISE] common server design Martin Keegan
- try it out! Chris Gray
- Population container Wout Mertens
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Population container Raz
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Marian Griffith
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Martin Keegan
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Martin Keegan
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jeff Kesselman
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Brandon Cline
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Jeff Kesselman
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Chris Gray
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Brandon Gillespie
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Jon A. Lambert
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Nathan Yospe
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions Huibai
- Alright... IF your gonna do Disease... Jon A. Lambert
- thread splitting Alex Oren
- thread splitting coder@ibm.net
- thread splitting coder@ibm.net
- thread splitting Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Senses & geographical events Wout Mertens
- Senses & geographical events Chris Gray
- Senses & geographical events clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Additions to sensory planes Wout Mertens
- Nation of shopkeepers Martin Keegan
- Nation of shopkeepers Huibai
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Brandon Van Every
- Nation of shopkeepers Jon A. Lambert
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Alex Oren
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Chris Gray