June 1997
- UNSUBSCRIBE Dan Armstrong
- Resets, langs, and quests ashen
- [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Jeff Kesselman
- [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP: TIime to define Jeff Kesselman
- RP: TIime to define Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...] Matt Chatterley
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...] Marian Griffith
- Administrative posting coder@ibm.net
- Administrative posting Jeff Kesselman
- Administrative posting coder@ibm.net
- PKilling (was Life) Brandon Gillespie
- A quick apology... Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The reality of constant combat?? Ling
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Huibai
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Adam Wiggins
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jon A. Lambert
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based coder@ibm.net
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Marian Griffith
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Miroslav Silovic
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based coder@ibm.net
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Miroslav Silovic
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Life Jamie Norrish
- Life Ling
- Life ashen
- Life Matt Chatterley
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Life clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Life Marian Griffith
- Life Adam Wiggins
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Life clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan Adam Wiggins
- RP/PG examples Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP/PG examples Jeff Kesselman
- RP/PG examples Adam Wiggins
- RP/PG examples Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP/PG examples Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Ling
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Matt Chatterley
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Brandon Cline
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD coder@ibm.net
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Matt Chatterley
- Computers can't.... Jeff Kesselman
- Computers can't.... Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Computers can't.... Jeff Kesselman
- Combat and Roleplay Jeff Kesselman
- Combat and Roleplay clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Death Jeff Kesselman
- Learning Todd Lair
- Message problems with this list coder@ibm.net
- Greetings Koster, Raph
- Another Introduction... Travis S Casey
- Lorry's document on wizard-hood clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Lorry's document on wizard-hood Jeff Kesselman
- Lorry's document on wizard-hood clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Threaded rand() Ling
- I have no words and I must design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- I have no words and I must design Adam Wiggins
- TSR has been bought. Jeff Kesselman
- DESIGN: The Physics of Magic coder@ibm.net
- over the shoudler view Jeff Kesselman
- Re:[DESIGN] the physcis of magic. Jeff Kesselman
- RIME/Fido nolstalgia Adam Wiggins
- a definition of role-playing Travis S Casey
- [RP] The thoughful player Jeff Kesselman
- web archive for MUD Design List ? Dmitri Kondratiev
- web archive for MUD Design List ? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- web archive for MUD Design List ? Dmitri Kondratiev
- web archive for MUD Design List ? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- [WotC TSR buyout] WotC Survey Jeff Kesselman
- The laws of probability coder@ibm.net
- The laws of probability Chris Gray
- The laws of probability coder@ibm.net
- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The laws of probability Adam Wiggins
- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) coder@ibm.net
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Nathan Yospe
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Simon Miller
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Matt Chatterley
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jon A. Lambert
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Simon Miller
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- Physical Space Representation Mathue Moyer
- Physical Space Representation coder@ibm.net
- "From Kansas to Oz" Chris Gray
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "From Kansas to Oz" Jeff Kesselman
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "From Kansas to Oz" Jeff Kesselman
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "From Kansas to Oz" Miroslav Silovic
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "From Kansas to Oz" Jeff Kesselman
- "From Kansas to Oz" coder@ibm.net
- "From Kansas to Oz" Brandon Gillespie
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Text output [was "short" Introductory Message (fwd)] Matt Chatterley
- (fwd) RESEARCH: Why do you admin a Mud? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Genuinely brief intro Dr. Cat
- Genuinely brief intro Jeff Kesselman
- Genuinely brief intro Chris Gray
- Genuinely brief intro Jeff Kesselman
- Genuinely brief intro Dr. Cat
- Genuinely brief intro Koster, Raph
- Genuinely brief intro Jeff Kesselman
- Genuinely brief intro clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Genuinely brief intro Jeff Kesselman
- Genuinely brief intro Dr. Cat
- Commercial interests and rules clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- mention from Mud-Dev clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Intellectual property Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Intellectual property Jeff Kesselman
- Digest support coder@ibm.net
- List message losses coder@ibm.net
- Testing. coder@ibm.net
- Persistancy Matt Chatterley
- Name/language generation Oliver Jowett
- Name/language generation Brandon Cline
- Name/language generation Chris Gray
- Name/language generation Shawn Halpenny
- Name/language generation Brandon Gillespie
- Name/language generation Martin Keegan
- Name/language generation Jamie Norrish
- Name/language generation Jeff Kesselman
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Chris Gray
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Nathan Yospe
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Matt Chatterley
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Adam Wiggins
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Matt Chatterley
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Jon A. Lambert
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Nathan Yospe
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Matt Chatterley
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Chris Gray
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Nathan Yospe
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Matt Chatterley
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Matt Chatterley
- Population container Wout Mertens
- Population container Brandon Cline
- Population container Jon A. Lambert
- Population container Chris Gray
- Population container Nathan Yospe
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Population container Wout Mertens
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Population container Wout Mertens
- Population container Chris Gray
- Population container Nathan Yospe
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Dragons... size and history Nathan Yospe
- Dragons (Couldn't resist) Nathan Yospe
- Heroes Nathan Yospe
- Alright... IF your gonan do OWLs... Nathan Yospe
- Black Rabbit & Vworlds-biz mail list Frank Crowell
- Supporting RP+PG Huibai
- Supporting RP+PG Jeff Kesselman
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG Huibai
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Supporting RP+PG Huibai
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG Marian Griffith
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG Chris Gray
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG Adam Wiggins
- Supporting RP+PG Miroslav Silovic
- Supporting RP+PG Adam Wiggins
- Supporting RP+PG Jon A. Lambert
- Supporting RP+PG Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Supporting RP+PG Huibai
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Marian Griffith
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK Marian Griffith
- Integrating PK Jeff Kesselman
- Integrating PK clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Integrating PK Jeff Kesselman
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Integrating PK Alex Oren
- Integrating PK Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Integrating PK Shawn Halpenny
- Integrating PK Nathan Yospe
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Jeff Kesselman
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Jeff Kesselman
- Integrating PK Jon A. Lambert
- Integrating PK Jeff Kesselman
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Martin Keegan
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- common server design Chris Gray
- common server design Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- common server design Chris Gray
- common server design Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- common server design Chris Gray
- common server design Jeff Kesselman
- common server design Jon A. Lambert
- common server design Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- common server design Jeff Kesselman
- common server design Alex Oren
- common server design Jeff Kesselman
- common server design Cynbe ru Taren
- common server design Jon A. Lambert
- common server design Chris Gray
- common server design Caliban Tiresias Darklock
On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:25:38 PST8PDT, cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
(Chris Gray) wrote:
>[Caliban:]
>
>:The user has to use the commands, so the user should be the
>:primary concern in designing a command structure.
>
>I have to disagree. User input is important, yes, but you cannot ignore
>the realities of implementation. Some ideas are just plain not workable,
>regardless of what uninformed users might think.
So who do you design your command syntax for, if not the users? And what
in God's name are you thinking?
>:> Doing that stuff while ignoring what the server is like is bound to run into
>:> troubles.
>:
>:That viewpoint basically hammers a fundamental theory of object-oriented
>:programming,
[snip]
>Sorry, I don't see your point here. Can you rephase?
What the server is like internally should not be reflected in the
commands. What the people playing the game are expected to be like
should be reflected in the commands.
>"Intuitive and understandable" are so subjective that they can easily
>lose all value as evaluators. As you say below, the concensus (hah!) of
>a group of people is generally of more value, so long as that group has
>enough background to be aware of most of the issues. The opinion of a
>large group of uninformed/inexperienced people is often not worth much.
Which is why I'm trying to discuss this here instead of on rgma or
something.
>I think you have to have a more strongly defined goal than that. What
>appears to happen a lot, at least from what I've gathered from folks on
>this list, is that people with lots of experience with MUDs (I'm not
>counting myself here, since I have almost no experience with MUDs outside
>of my own) have thought about what they find wrong with current servers,
>and have set out to try alternative stuff in the hopes that it will
>serve better. This is much more like research than it is like deliberate
>commercial development.
Deliberate development implies a large amount of research and thought.
Another word for this process is 'deliberation'. The parallel is
evident.
I see a lot of people going 'I use something unlike any other server!',
and people that can't even spell are expecting me to believe that fifty
years of computer programming theory has never produced anything as good
as what they've written. I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Great men stand
taller because they stand on the shoulders of those who came before
them. To ignore the past, the history of the field, is to doom yourself
to the same mistakes. That's why we have lists like this: to sanity
check ideas. Evidently this one's totally whacked, nobody likes it.
>I think a lot of input from the user point of view would be valuable, but
>not directly applicable to the core of a server (I always tend to think
>of a server as being fully programmable, so that the distance from its
>core to user commands is quite large).
Exactly. Which is why they do not need to depend on each other at all.
>The value of all of that user input
>is in how to build upon the core to attain the selected portion of the
>user goals.
This is the way we've always done things. You design something that has
nothing to do with your end result, and then work toward the goal. But
let's try working inward -- start from the user, and say what does he
need? What does he want? And how can I get it to him?
>Trying to exactly match any given set of requests from
>inexperienced users sounds like a recipe for failure to me.
It is, which is why I wanted to discuss a variety of options and
viewpoints with experienced users and developers instead of taking a
survey.
>Paying attention to the requests is valuable, but following them exactly isn't.
Yes, that's true, which is why I wouldn't do that.
>Achieving an affect that
>appears cool to its users can be done by entirely non-cool internal
>techniques.
But the end result is cool. QED.
>And vice-versa, unfortunately. Again, what is cool will
>vary from user to user, too.
If it doesn't benefit (and look cool to) the user, why are you working
on it?
> - silly inheritance in LP that results in sillyness like 3K rooms
> that are minimally different from one another
> - ridiculous scripts in Mush that look like line noise victims
> - poor command parsing in many MUDs (it isn't hard to add a little
> bit of support for extras words, punctuation, etc.!)
> - whatever...
All of these things are being used for cool purposes on the net. Except
maybe 'whatever', which I don't think is being used in a cool way
anywhere at all.
>In my case it arises from my belief there are a lot of hackers out there
>who will implement whatever seems easiest at the time, with little or
>no thought of future expansion.
That's what I want to get away from.
>To me, such systems seem to be things
>that have mutated and sprouted cancers, rather than things that have
>grown properly with adequate resources. A good designer has to step
>back from time to time and ask if what is happening is good, and then
>be willing to redo stuff if it isn't good. Too many people hacking on
>MUD servers do not do that, and it shows. (Not that I'm claiming that
>I would never resist change!)
Yes, exactly. Which is why I think sitting down and talking about it and
planning things based on the *need* before the *implementation* will be
helpful.
>Question: are we talking about the user input in general to MUDs, or are
>we just talking about some building commands and ignoring the more common
>stuff? I've been assuming we're talking about everything.
We are. I generally use builder commands as examples, because they tend
to suffer from HUA syndrome more than the usual front-line commands. I
don't think much improvement can be added to look, get, drop, go, etc. I
did mention that 'give' could use some work.
>Got any specific suggestions you'd like to start the discussion process
>with?
>
>Here is one from me: (using pseudo-BNF type stuff)
>
> Don't use page <who> '=' '"' message
> Instead, use page <who> <message>
> where <message> is the rest of the input line
I made this exact same observation earlier in the discussion, along with
the associated mention that this precludes the use of spaces in names.
No response was ever made on the matter.
>This isn't super user friendly, but after a bit of practice isn't bad -
It's the user friendliness that I think we need to QUIT IGNORING. We've
done it far too long.
>most people will have more trouble remembering the various room types
>(which just controls what generic room they inherit from), than in
>remembering the pieces of the command.
What happens if you mix up the parameters? The more parms you have, the
greater the chance that someone can inadvertantly do something they
didn't want to do.
>Would it be more user friendly
>to have keywords for all the pieces, and default values, so that users
>could use, e.g.:
>
> @r new type indoors dir n
>
>or, if you like typing punctuation:
>
> @r new type=indoors dir=n
I see some problems here. What about when a direction isn't appropriate?
What if a room type just isn't appropriate to the game system? Something
I'd prefer to see is a series of atomic commands rather than batches;
batches can generally be done using the programming language, after all.
While it may seem tedious, building is something that is prone to the
worst kind of creeping complexity; I would love to offer some examples,
but I am incredibly tired. I'll post something more specific tomorrow,
most likely.
-+[caliban@darklock.com]+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
I am here to grind your eyes harder into the miasmic bile of life; to
show you the truth and the beauty in the whisper of steel on silk and
the crimson scent of blood as it rises to meet the caress of a blade.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+[http://www.darklock.com/]+- - common server design Chris Gray
- common server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- common server design Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- common server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- common server design Martin Keegan
- common server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- common server design Cynbe ru Taren
- common server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- common server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Re: Jeff Kesselman
- The Difference between.. Jeff Kesselman
- The Difference between.. Adam Wiggins
- The Difference between.. Jeff Kesselman
- The Difference between.. clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The Difference between.. Jeff Kesselman
- (subject missing) mud-dev@null.net
- Neighborhoods (was room-based v coord-based) S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Neighborhoods (was room-based v coord-based) Brandon J. Rickman
- Pen-and-paper and Computer-based systems Alex Oren
- User Interface (was: RP=MUSH/PG=MUD) Shawn Halpenny
- Rumours Marian Griffith
- Levels and XP Huibai
- Levels and XP Martin Keegan
- Levels and XP Simon Miller
- Levels and XP Huibai
- Levels and XP Nathan Yospe
- Levels and XP Matt Chatterley
- Meta clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- non pk dealing with conflicts Marian Griffith
- Integrating PK Brandon Cline
- Integrating PK Huibai
- Integrating PK Brandon Cline
- Integrating PK Huibai
- Integrating PK Nathan Yospe
- Integrating PK Cynbe ru Taren
- Integrating PK Chris Gray
- Integrating PK clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Integrating PK Jon A. Lambert
- noise Alex Oren
- Neighborhood watch clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Neighborhood watch Nathan Yospe
- Neighborhood watch Chris Gray
- Neighborhood watch Nathan Yospe
- Neighborhood watch Brandon J. Rickman
- Neighborhood watch clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Neighborhood watch Chris Gray
- Neighborhood watch clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Mob AI Brandon Cline
- Hardcore server design Alex Oren
- Hardcore server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- [NOISE] common server design Martin Keegan
- try it out! Chris Gray
- Population container Wout Mertens
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Population container Raz
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Marian Griffith
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Martin Keegan
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Martin Keegan
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jeff Kesselman
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Brandon Cline
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Jeff Kesselman
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Chris Gray
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Brandon Gillespie
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Jon A. Lambert
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Nathan Yospe
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions Huibai
- Alright... IF your gonna do Disease... Jon A. Lambert
- thread splitting Alex Oren
- thread splitting coder@ibm.net
- thread splitting coder@ibm.net
- thread splitting Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Senses & geographical events Wout Mertens
- Senses & geographical events Chris Gray
- Senses & geographical events clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Additions to sensory planes Wout Mertens
- Nation of shopkeepers Martin Keegan
- Nation of shopkeepers Huibai
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Brandon Van Every
- Nation of shopkeepers Jon A. Lambert
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Alex Oren
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Chris Gray