June 1997
- UNSUBSCRIBE Dan Armstrong
- Resets, langs, and quests ashen
- [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Jeff Kesselman
- [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP: TIime to define Jeff Kesselman
- RP: TIime to define Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...] Matt Chatterley
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...] Marian Griffith
- Administrative posting coder@ibm.net
- Administrative posting Jeff Kesselman
- Administrative posting coder@ibm.net
- PKilling (was Life) Brandon Gillespie
- A quick apology... Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The reality of constant combat?? Ling
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Huibai
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Adam Wiggins
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jon A. Lambert
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based coder@ibm.net
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Marian Griffith
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Miroslav Silovic
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based coder@ibm.net
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Miroslav Silovic
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Life Jamie Norrish
- Life Ling
- Life ashen
- Life Matt Chatterley
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Life clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Life Marian Griffith
- Life Adam Wiggins
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Life clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan Adam Wiggins
- RP/PG examples Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP/PG examples Jeff Kesselman
- RP/PG examples Adam Wiggins
- RP/PG examples Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP/PG examples Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Ling
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Matt Chatterley
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Brandon Cline
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD coder@ibm.net
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Matt Chatterley
- Computers can't.... Jeff Kesselman
- Computers can't.... Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Computers can't.... Jeff Kesselman
- Combat and Roleplay Jeff Kesselman
- Combat and Roleplay clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Death Jeff Kesselman
- Learning Todd Lair
- Message problems with this list coder@ibm.net
- Greetings Koster, Raph
- Another Introduction... Travis S Casey
- Lorry's document on wizard-hood clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Lorry's document on wizard-hood Jeff Kesselman
- Lorry's document on wizard-hood clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Threaded rand() Ling
- I have no words and I must design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- I have no words and I must design Adam Wiggins
- TSR has been bought. Jeff Kesselman
- DESIGN: The Physics of Magic coder@ibm.net
- over the shoudler view Jeff Kesselman
- Re:[DESIGN] the physcis of magic. Jeff Kesselman
- RIME/Fido nolstalgia Adam Wiggins
- a definition of role-playing Travis S Casey
- [RP] The thoughful player Jeff Kesselman
- web archive for MUD Design List ? Dmitri Kondratiev
- web archive for MUD Design List ? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- web archive for MUD Design List ? Dmitri Kondratiev
- web archive for MUD Design List ? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- [WotC TSR buyout] WotC Survey Jeff Kesselman
- The laws of probability coder@ibm.net
- The laws of probability Chris Gray
- The laws of probability coder@ibm.net
- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The laws of probability Adam Wiggins
- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) coder@ibm.net
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Nathan Yospe
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Simon Miller
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Matt Chatterley
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jon A. Lambert
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Simon Miller
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- Physical Space Representation Mathue Moyer
- Physical Space Representation coder@ibm.net
- "From Kansas to Oz" Chris Gray
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "From Kansas to Oz" Jeff Kesselman
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "From Kansas to Oz" Jeff Kesselman
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "From Kansas to Oz" Miroslav Silovic
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "From Kansas to Oz" Jeff Kesselman
- "From Kansas to Oz" coder@ibm.net
- "From Kansas to Oz" Brandon Gillespie
- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Text output [was "short" Introductory Message (fwd)] Matt Chatterley
- (fwd) RESEARCH: Why do you admin a Mud? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Genuinely brief intro Dr. Cat
- Genuinely brief intro Jeff Kesselman
- Genuinely brief intro Chris Gray
- Genuinely brief intro Jeff Kesselman
- Genuinely brief intro Dr. Cat
- Genuinely brief intro Koster, Raph
- Genuinely brief intro Jeff Kesselman
- Genuinely brief intro clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Genuinely brief intro Jeff Kesselman
- Genuinely brief intro Dr. Cat
- Commercial interests and rules clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- mention from Mud-Dev clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Intellectual property Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Intellectual property Jeff Kesselman
- Digest support coder@ibm.net
- List message losses coder@ibm.net
- Testing. coder@ibm.net
- Persistancy Matt Chatterley
- Name/language generation Oliver Jowett
- Name/language generation Brandon Cline
- Name/language generation Chris Gray
- Name/language generation Shawn Halpenny
- Name/language generation Brandon Gillespie
- Name/language generation Martin Keegan
- Name/language generation Jamie Norrish
- Name/language generation Jeff Kesselman
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Chris Gray
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Nathan Yospe
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Matt Chatterley
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Adam Wiggins
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Matt Chatterley
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Jon A. Lambert
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Nathan Yospe
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Matt Chatterley
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Chris Gray
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Nathan Yospe
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Matt Chatterley
- Git out the boar spear, Martha! Matt Chatterley
- Population container Wout Mertens
- Population container Brandon Cline
- Population container Jon A. Lambert
- Population container Chris Gray
- Population container Nathan Yospe
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Population container Wout Mertens
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Population container Wout Mertens
- Population container Chris Gray
- Population container Nathan Yospe
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Dragons... size and history Nathan Yospe
- Dragons (Couldn't resist) Nathan Yospe
- Heroes Nathan Yospe
- Alright... IF your gonan do OWLs... Nathan Yospe
- Black Rabbit & Vworlds-biz mail list Frank Crowell
- Supporting RP+PG Huibai
- Supporting RP+PG Jeff Kesselman
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG Huibai
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Supporting RP+PG Huibai
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG Marian Griffith
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG Chris Gray
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Supporting RP+PG Adam Wiggins
- Supporting RP+PG Miroslav Silovic
- Supporting RP+PG Adam Wiggins
- Supporting RP+PG Jon A. Lambert
- Supporting RP+PG Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Supporting RP+PG Huibai
- Supporting RP+PG Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Marian Griffith
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK Marian Griffith
- Integrating PK Jeff Kesselman
- Integrating PK clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Integrating PK Jeff Kesselman
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Integrating PK Alex Oren
- Integrating PK Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Integrating PK Shawn Halpenny
- Integrating PK Nathan Yospe
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Jeff Kesselman
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Jeff Kesselman
- Integrating PK Jon A. Lambert
- Integrating PK Jeff Kesselman
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Integrating PK Adam Wiggins
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- Integrating PK Martin Keegan
- Integrating PK Matt Chatterley
- common server design Chris Gray
- common server design Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- common server design Chris Gray
- common server design Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- common server design Chris Gray
[Caliban:]
:> To a certain extent, yes. But, the facilities available in the server
:> will influence what make sense in designing the way in which things like
:> rooms, objects, commands, etc. are put together.
:
:However, this also results in the commands being fitted to the server
:instead of
:the user. The user has to use the commands, so the user should be the
:primary
:concern in designing a command structure.
I have to disagree. User input is important, yes, but you cannot ignore
the realities of implementation. Some ideas are just plain not workable,
regardless of what uninformed users might think.
:> Doing that stuff while ignoring what the server is like is bound to run into
:> troubles.
:
:That viewpoint basically hammers a fundamental theory of object-oriented
:programming, which is that no part of the program should rely upon any
:knowledge
:or assumptions regarding the rest of the program. If OOP is appropriate
:for a
:MUD server, then OOD should also be appropriate. You design each object
:within
:the four groups mentioned previously (user interface, command interface,
:network
:interface, and game system) as though anything whatsoever could be
:interacting
:with it.
Sorry, I don't see your point here. Can you rephase?
:> If you
:> have a concept of separate "exits" (I don't), then any support in the
:> server for them should be considered, and vice versa.
:
:If you have no concept of anything, the server must by necessity support
:an
:intuitive and understandable method of describing in an effective
:fashion
:something that the developer would never in a million years have thought
:of.
:It's the 'intuitive and understandable' parts which bog down some
:servers.
"Intuitive and understandable" are so subjective that they can easily
lose all value as evaluators. As you say below, the concensus (hah!) of
a group of people is generally of more value, so long as that group has
enough background to be aware of most of the issues. The opinion of a
large group of uninformed/inexperienced people is often not worth much.
:> You can't do the
:> two completely separately, since the base of the scenario is dependent
:> on the server and what it does well.
:
:I expect the server to have a very broad but well-defined goal, which is
:to run
:text-based multiplayer online games that are easy to interact with.
:Given that
:goal, certain types of games (Quake, chess, connect four, poker,
:scrabble, word
:search puzzles, crosswords, etc.) won't really be appropriate. Neither
:will some
:potential applications (operating systems, device drivers, compilers).
:While I
:am sure some weirdo somewhere is going to complain he can't use RPC in
:his
:mobprogs, I don't think that necessarily means we need that in the
:server.
I think you have to have a more strongly defined goal than that. What
appears to happen a lot, at least from what I've gathered from folks on
this list, is that people with lots of experience with MUDs (I'm not
counting myself here, since I have almost no experience with MUDs outside
of my own) have thought about what they find wrong with current servers,
and have set out to try alternative stuff in the hopes that it will
serve better. This is much more like research than it is like deliberate
commercial development.
I think a lot of input from the user point of view would be valuable, but
not directly applicable to the core of a server (I always tend to think
of a server as being fully programmable, so that the distance from its
core to user commands is quite large). The value of all of that user input
is in how to build upon the core to attain the selected portion of the
user goals. Trying to exactly match any given set of requests from
inexperienced users sounds like a recipe for failure to me. Paying
attention to the requests is valuable, but following them exactly isn't.
:> Certainly, but I think it is unwise to equate "cool" with "useful". In
:> real life, the best way to do something may not be cool at all.
:
:If you're trying to create something cool, then the best way to do it is
:by
:definition something cool. QED. There will obviously be some limitations
:and
:restrictions the final server inherits -- try to be everything to
:everyone, and
:you end up nothing to nobody -- but I'm really hoping we can create
:something
:that will flatten the learning curve without overly diminishing the
:power. In
:my opinion, that's pretty cool *and* pretty useful. You may disagree, of
:course,
:since that's your prerogative.
I guess it depends on how you think of "cool". Achieving an affect that
appears cool to its users can be done by entirely non-cool internal
techniques. And vice-versa, unfortunately. Again, what is cool will
vary from user to user, too.
:Another point might be that there is a lot of useful crap out there,
:too. Think
:of the most horrendous misfeature of a server you have ever seen in your
:life
:(no, I don't have anything in mind, but I'm sure it's not hard for you
:to come up
:with one) and I can almost guarantee that someone out there is using it
:for something. If nothing else, *you're* using it as an example. ;)
Well, given my almost total lack of experience with other MUD systems,
some things I've seen so far that really didn't appeal are:
- silly inheritance in LP that results in sillyness like 3K rooms
that are minimally different from one another
- ridiculous scripts in Mush that look like line noise victims
- poor command parsing in many MUDs (it isn't hard to add a little
bit of support for extras words, punctuation, etc.!)
- whatever...
:The willingness of people to believe that my example of a pathologically
:bad
:command line for a game server was a *recommendation* pretty much
:demonstrates
:people's expectation that a game server's command syntax will be
:unusable and
:cryptic.
In my case it arises from my belief there are a lot of hackers out there
who will implement whatever seems easiest at the time, with little or
no thought of future expansion. To me, such systems seem to be things
that have mutated and sprouted cancers, rather than things that have
grown properly with adequate resources. A good designer has to step
back from time to time and ask if what is happening is good, and then
be willing to redo stuff if it isn't good. Too many people hacking on
MUD servers do not do that, and it shows. (Not that I'm claiming that
I would never resist change!)
This arises mainly from the lack of external input, I think;
:there are
:things I find intuitive, and things other people find intuitive. Since I
:am a
:longtime gamer, experienced programmer, and network administrator...
:chances are
:I would find something 'intuitive' where many other people would find it
:just
:plain confusing. I might, for example, think that a good syntax for
:making some
:object inherit another objects properties is by using a command like
:
: create child uses parent
:
:But someone else could look at this and get confused. Obviously, the
:Java people
:among us will likely think this is perfectly logical, although an
:argument could
:certainly be made for 'extends' instead of 'uses'. Someone else might
:prefer to
:have the commands separated -- for example, 'create child' and 'link
:child parent'. Other people will of course have different ideas. But the
:problem with
:both approaches is that it isn't really descriptive of the parent/child
:relationship, and doesn't spring to mind instantly when trying to make
:one
:object the same as another object.
I wouldn't have any problem with that sort of distinction. My solution
would be to accept any of the keywords that people are likely to use
(or use none at all, and rely on position). The things I have problems
with are excess use of hard-to-type punctuation characters and escape
mechanisms. (Background: I also immensely dislike the syntax of things
like shell scripts, nroff/troff, some of the perl stuff, etc.)
:Which is why I like the idea of getting together in a sort of round
:table
:discussion about what makes a game server's command interface good or
:bad, and
:how it could be made better. That way, even if the discussion goes
:straight to hell and degenerates into flamage, we see some other
:people's opinions. We should
:all at least get one or two ideas from this sort of discussion, since
:even when
:someone just says 'a command like X sucks' you might think of a way to
:fix it or
:a new command that doesn't suck.
Question: are we talking about the user input in general to MUDs, or are
we just talking about some building commands and ignoring the more common
stuff? I've been assuming we're talking about everything.
Got any specific suggestions you'd like to start the discussion process
with?
Here is one from me: (using pseudo-BNF type stuff)
Don't use page <who> '=' '"' message
Instead, use page <who> <message>
where <message> is the rest of the input line
Given that the builder commands in my MUD are part of the scenario and
not the server, I can likely throw together stuff to try them fairly
quickly (assuming I'm not deep in something else, of course!). The
problem is more likely to be in the basic concepts in building. As I
said, I have no such thing as "exits" as separate entities, and I also
have no concept of "objnums" or anything like that. The latter just
doesn't make any sense in my system. When you build a room via a command,
as in:
build room new north indoors in Chris's new room
you get a new room that is linked to the north of the room you are
currently in. You can then move to it and decorate it, change its
connections to other places, add entry/exit restrictions, etc. You can
also give it a symbol in a symbol table, for later reference. Oh, the
above is parsed according to:
<generic command: build, alias @>
<build command: room, alias r>
<room building command: new>
<direction to build in: north, alias n>
<room type: indoors>
<room name: "in Chris's new room">
This isn't super user friendly, but after a bit of practice isn't bad -
most people will have more trouble remembering the various room types
(which just controls what generic room they inherit from), than in
remembering the pieces of the command. Would it be more user friendly
to have keywords for all the pieces, and default values, so that users
could use, e.g.:
@r new type indoors dir n
or, if you like typing punctuation:
@r new type=indoors dir=n
?
--
Chris Gray cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA - common server design Jeff Kesselman
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- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
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- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
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- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
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- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
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