June 1997
- UNSUBSCRIBE Dan Armstrong
- Resets, langs, and quests ashen
- [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Jeff Kesselman
At 09:38 AM 6/1/97 PST8PDT, you wrote:
>Still I'ld say
>that the overall feeling of powergamers towards role-players is sort of
>like, 'Hmmm, okay. If that's what floats your boat...' From the time
>I've spent on Tinys (my first mud was a MUX, in fact) I noticed a
>pretty strong disdain for diku/lp-ites, and the violent oposition I've
>seen in recent weeks on this list makes me think that the RP-folks here
>were mugged by someone claiming to be a diku player long ago and have
>harbored a deep grudge ever since.
No, but youa re close.
Roleplayers don't GO to Diku mUDS. We stay to Reolaply envrionemnets.
Pkilerls DO coem to our Roleplay envrionments and abuse us.
Thus, what you have seen is 100% in accord with my earlier comments, but
your conclusion is backwards.
>All negativity aside - absolutely! You design a game a certain way, and
>it attracts certain kinds of players - the ones that want to play that
>kind of game. And there you go, that's all there is to it.
I agree, thsi was my point. My exuberence came from exasperation from a
situation I've treid to help manage for over a year.. caliban gave an
EXCELLENT summation of it in full, Ild justr efer back to it.
See my comment abvoe though in re who goes where.
>
>I think it's also pretty silly to think that you can categorize people
>so easily.
Thsi isn't 'easily" this is 20 years of Roelplay experience. thes
eproblems are NOt new. The only new thign is that you arent dealign witha
small group of freinds who can jus tthrow out anyoen whose play style
clashes...
>I think I've already described my ex-roommates who play
>almost exclusively powermuds, although they've also played plenty of MUSHes
>in their day. They also spend 12 - 14 hours every Thrusday playing
>pen-and-paper RPGs with a few other friends. One of them checked out
>several books on Celtic mythology in order to further flesh out one of
>his characters. As he puts it - "Why role-play via scrolling text when
>it's so much more fun to do it with my friends?"
Because of three factors:
(1) MANy people can NOT get a game together regualrly, they don't know
enough people locally with thsi same wierd hobby. Onlien provides them a
communtiy thats nmore or less always there and ready.
(2) Anonymity. Thsi has two advanatges:
(a) For the beginnign roleplayer it p[roivide s aless threatening
environment to experiment with roleplay (preoviding you lose
the Pkilling morons Caliban described so nicely.)
(b) Stronger immersion. The problem with around a table is that it
is VERY hard to break the knwoeledge that the 16 yaer a
old blonde half-elf yoru flirting with is played by a 45 year old
pot bellied male computer scientist. The afct that you
CANNOT see the player FORCES you to think in terms of character.
This BTW is why most serious roleplayers onlien take such
offense at OOC questions...
(3) (er I forgot point 3... maybe it'll come abck to me...)
>Actually, you should modify this to be 'assholes and clueless people.'
>The *vast* majority of bug-abuse I've seen in my admin and player days
>both are from people who don't know any better. They just assume that's
Hmm. I don't thin kthis qualifies under "bug abuse" to me. Im talkign
abotu the p[alyers who beat on the software to find "dupe bugs" (as an
example) and then run around duping all the powerful items... these peopel
KNOW this is nto a part of the game as designed. The same people in m
yexperince, btw,a s soo nas you gfix the dupe bugs graduate to genuine
hacking.
>Of course, but I must ask, is this *really* a problem? It's certainly
>not a design problem - it's just bugs in the system. Secondly, I've
>seen very, very few cases of successful hacking on muds. In most cases
Dpeends on how broadly you deifne MUD. If you include the comemrical
graphic game such as NWN, Diablo and DSO its been a HUGE problem.
>> What does this, pray tell, have to do
>>with anything?
because in tehs eenvironments, the ahckers are al lhackign for one reason--
to push their pwoer level illegally. In many ways its the ultimate
expression of unethical powergaming (ther IS sucha thing as ethical
powergaming-- but IMo part of the ethics is keeping it in teh right setting.)
>
>Again, something I've never seen. I've seen people powertrip or
>otherwise make general nuissances of themselves plenty of times, but I've
>never seen this.
Its clear to me you have been dealing with closed or limited userhsip MUDS
and not open commercial environments...
>Case in point: Chris L is designing what could be classified as
>the most powergame-y mud ever, but I don't see a lack of flexibilty and
>creative ways to do things *there*. In fact, I see more than any mud
>I've ever played, role-play or not.
Great, as I said, proper context. As long as it clearly defined as a
power-ganme and not a rolepaly game he shouldn't have any of the worst
problems...
BUT I PROMISE you he WILl have people trying to break the system.
This si the problem with POWER as a goal... the ultimate power is in
getting AROUND the restrictions of the game, not going throguh them.
Thsi is why RPers tend to be a "better" community froma systems standpoint.
they have nothing to gain from breaking your system.
Also IMo he will not get much societal development... setting people
against each other gives you at best the msot primitive of societies...
basicly street gangs banded togetehr only for survival and to be able to do
mroe damage to the "enemy".
> - [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP: TIime to define Jeff Kesselman
- RP: TIime to define Caliban Tiresias Darklock
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- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
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- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
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- The reality of constant combat?? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
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- Neighborhood watch clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Mob AI Brandon Cline
- Hardcore server design Alex Oren
- Hardcore server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- [NOISE] common server design Martin Keegan
- try it out! Chris Gray
- Population container Wout Mertens
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Population container Raz
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Marian Griffith
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Martin Keegan
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Martin Keegan
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jeff Kesselman
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Brandon Cline
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Jeff Kesselman
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Chris Gray
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Brandon Gillespie
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Jon A. Lambert
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Nathan Yospe
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions Huibai
- Alright... IF your gonna do Disease... Jon A. Lambert
- thread splitting Alex Oren
- thread splitting coder@ibm.net
- thread splitting coder@ibm.net
- thread splitting Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Senses & geographical events Wout Mertens
- Senses & geographical events Chris Gray
- Senses & geographical events clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Additions to sensory planes Wout Mertens
- Nation of shopkeepers Martin Keegan
- Nation of shopkeepers Huibai
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Brandon Van Every
- Nation of shopkeepers Jon A. Lambert
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Alex Oren
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Chris Gray