June 1997
- UNSUBSCRIBE Dan Armstrong
- Resets, langs, and quests ashen
- [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Jeff Kesselman
- [RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP: TIime to define Jeff Kesselman
- RP: TIime to define Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...] Matt Chatterley
- Reasonable danger [was Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...] Marian Griffith
- Administrative posting coder@ibm.net
- Administrative posting Jeff Kesselman
- Administrative posting coder@ibm.net
- PKilling (was Life) Brandon Gillespie
- A quick apology... Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Jon A. Lambert
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? Adam Wiggins
- The reality of constant combat?? Jeff Kesselman
- The reality of constant combat?? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The reality of constant combat?? Ling
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Huibai
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Adam Wiggins
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jon A. Lambert
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Nathan Yospe
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Alex Oren
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Shawn Halpenny
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based coder@ibm.net
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Marian Griffith
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Brandon J. Rickman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Miroslav Silovic
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based coder@ibm.net
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Miroslav Silovic
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Jeff Kesselman
- Room-based vs. coordinate-based Chris Gray
- Life Jamie Norrish
- Life Ling
- Life ashen
- Life Matt Chatterley
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Life clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Life Jeff Kesselman
- Life Marian Griffith
- Life clawrenc@cup.hp.com
In <Marcel-1.09-0529232631-b49Ky&5@Gryphon.iaehv.nl>, on 05/29/97
at 07:50 PM, Marian Griffith <gryphon@iaehv.nl> said:
>On Wed 28 May, clawrenc@cup.hp.com wrote:
>> In <3.0.32.19970527122035.00acea0c@mail.tenetwork.com>, on 05/27/97
>> at 08:38 PM, Jeff Kesselman <jeffk@tenetwork.com> said:
>> >HOWEVER there is a social problem in obnoxsious players online purposely
>> >trying to hurt other players by killing their characters for no good
>> >Rp reason at all.
>> If you don't consider the violation of "true RP" a problem, then this
>> is less of a problem. If you're not attempting to run (or enforce) a
>> solely immersive RP game, then I can see little reason to get upset at
>> the "for no good Rp reason at all."
>I don't belief you can get out of this very real concern by saying
>that if you don't consider it a problem it isn't. There are some
>people who don't want to play at all.
Rephrase that to: "...don't want to roleplay at all."
>They want power, in a petty
>way. The classical bully who can't contribute anything but misery for
>others. If the object of the game is roleplaying then that assumes a
>certain cooperative attitude of the players.
If the violation of RP is not a problem (and thus the implicit trust
and cooperation you describe), then the killing is _less_ of a
problem.
I am not arguing that the problem does not exist, but arguing with
JeffK's concentration on a specific and rather specialised
value-judgement on the killing and making it the only point of
evaluation for the game. His position is only maintainable if you
accept his evaluation of the RP aspects of the game, and the RP
integrity of the game as being primary. If you devalue the RP, for
instance my moving towards a more "powergamer" centric game, then the
problem as described fades in proportion. There is a sliding scale
here, an axis if you wish, against which games and game actions can be
measured.
The exact point of my argument is that there is an implicit value
structure and unstated standard which is being used here to evaluate
and judge games and game designs/approaches -- in this case centric on
immersive RP. While I don't argue the validity of that structure and
standard, I strenuously object to its being assumed as the default in
discussion, or that assumption being implicit within a general non-RP
specific (as a tag for the assumption) discussion. Additionally to
the extent to which it becomes implicit it acutally violates the list
charter which is to be explicitly free of such base assumptions and
private hobby horses. The whole idea of the list is to move the
MUDding _field_ forward, not to merely advance RP'ing as one faction
over another, or even to change the balance of the field.
<arch eyebrows> <wander off distractedly>
>You have to do something about those players who don't want to play
>even by this minimum of courtesy. Or worse, who enjoy upsetting
>others for the power it gives over their emotions. Just saying that
>well, you can kill the .... and that's it won't work. At least not
>all the way.
Agreed, and here we get into the problems of bad game design. It is
difficult to implement free PK in a system without having to rework
much of the rest of the system design to accomodate. It definitely is
*not* a bolt-on in a design sense.
What I would like to see is constructive discussion of the game design
issues on how to approach free PK in such a manner that the rest of
the game remains balanced and slaughter-fests can be constrained.
Again, I attempt to handle this one via the side-effects of my other
design decisions.
I don't have a global naming system. Thus a PK'er can't do a "who",
and then track down the victim. Instead they must first locate the
other player without any implicit way to differentiate them from a
mobile (there is no command which will return, "this is a mobile" as
vs "this is a player body"). Then, ocne they have found them they
must assign a name to them (body specific, not character specific),
and then track them down from there.
Characters are not bound to their bodies. Thus a PK'er has no real
in-game way of associating a character with a specific other player.
They may be able to tell from listening to the character talk/tell
etc, but then that only applies to that one body, and once that body
is dead they are back to square one.
Additionally as bodies are a fairly fluid thing, killing a
character's body typically has little permanent effect on the
character. He has other bodies, or can easily get other bodies. It
is an incovenience and a disruption of the current action.
{Possible new feature} If I do this, upon a PK the dead character
becomes attached to the PK'er as a partial owner. This places the
PK'er at increasing risk as the numbers of PKs increases. Actually,
with the fuid state of bodies this is not necessarily such a problem:
A PK'er could pick up a second, third, fourth, or umpty-fifth body,
run about on a killing spree, let the body get killed and actually
engender no ill effects upon himself as a character.
The general side-effect I've concentrated on is to render individual
PK's as inconvenient but not catastrophic to a player, and to then
ensure that concerted or sustained attacks by a PK'er on an individual
other player is technically both not feasible and almost impossible to
sustain. What this leaves is the player who goes on a PK spree,
killing eveyrthing he can find. That is again diminished by
effectively ensuring that that body will be short lived, and having
none of that game-specific advantages accrued from the PK spree
reflect on that character's other bodies. As such its reduced to
annoying flash in the pan.
>... My
>viewpoint in this may be different from that of the average player
>but for me being attacked (or otherwise harassed) by another -player-
>is emotionally very upsetting.
And here is where the out-of-game values start to apply. I'm very
leery of treading in these areas as I suspect that a game system both
has no right to be there (and definitely no obligation or duty), and
more simply because they involve factors which are entirely outside of
the game system and cannot be either measured or controllably affected
by the game system. Too much chaos.
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw@null.net
(Contractor) Internet: coder@ibm.net
---------------(*) Internet: clawrenc@cup.hp.com
...Honorary Member Clan McFUD -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...
- Life clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- RP/PG examples Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP/PG examples Jeff Kesselman
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- RP/PG examples Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Ling
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Nathan Yospe
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
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- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
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- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
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- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jon A. Lambert
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- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Brandon Cline
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD coder@ibm.net
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Martin Keegan
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Adam Wiggins
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Jeff Kesselman
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Chris Gray
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- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Marian Griffith
- RP=MUSH/PG=MUD Matt Chatterley
- Computers can't.... Jeff Kesselman
- Computers can't.... Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Computers can't.... Jeff Kesselman
- Combat and Roleplay Jeff Kesselman
- Combat and Roleplay clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Death Jeff Kesselman
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- Message problems with this list coder@ibm.net
- Greetings Koster, Raph
- Another Introduction... Travis S Casey
- Lorry's document on wizard-hood clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- Threaded rand() Ling
- I have no words and I must design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- TSR has been bought. Jeff Kesselman
- DESIGN: The Physics of Magic coder@ibm.net
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- Re:[DESIGN] the physcis of magic. Jeff Kesselman
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- web archive for MUD Design List ? Dmitri Kondratiev
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- The laws of probability coder@ibm.net
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- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The laws of probability Adam Wiggins
- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The laws of probability clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) coder@ibm.net
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- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Chris Gray
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Nathan Yospe
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Simon Miller
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Matt Chatterley
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Marian Griffith
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jeff Kesselman
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Jon A. Lambert
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Martin Keegan
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- "short" Introductory Message (fwd) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
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- "From Kansas to Oz" clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- Genuinely brief intro Dr. Cat
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- common server design Chris Gray
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- Re: Jeff Kesselman
- The Difference between.. Jeff Kesselman
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- The Difference between.. Jeff Kesselman
- The Difference between.. clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- The Difference between.. Jeff Kesselman
- (subject missing) mud-dev@null.net
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- Integrating PK Brandon Cline
- Integrating PK Huibai
- Integrating PK Nathan Yospe
- Integrating PK Cynbe ru Taren
- Integrating PK Chris Gray
- Integrating PK clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Integrating PK Jon A. Lambert
- noise Alex Oren
- Neighborhood watch clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Neighborhood watch Nathan Yospe
- Neighborhood watch Chris Gray
- Neighborhood watch Nathan Yospe
- Neighborhood watch Brandon J. Rickman
- Neighborhood watch clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Neighborhood watch Chris Gray
- Neighborhood watch clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Mob AI Brandon Cline
- Hardcore server design Alex Oren
- Hardcore server design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- [NOISE] common server design Martin Keegan
- try it out! Chris Gray
- Population container Wout Mertens
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Population container Raz
- Population container clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Marian Griffith
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Martin Keegan
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Martin Keegan
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jeff Kesselman
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Adam Wiggins
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Jon A. Lambert
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Nathan Yospe
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues Matt Chatterley
- Level abstractions - Realism vs Game Issues clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Brandon Cline
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Jeff Kesselman
- Flexible, Modular Server Design Chris Gray
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Brandon Gillespie
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Jon A. Lambert
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) Nathan Yospe
- Another Approach (was: Integrating PK) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Level abstractions Huibai
- Alright... IF your gonna do Disease... Jon A. Lambert
- thread splitting Alex Oren
- thread splitting coder@ibm.net
- thread splitting coder@ibm.net
- thread splitting Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Senses & geographical events Wout Mertens
- Senses & geographical events Chris Gray
- Senses & geographical events clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Additions to sensory planes Wout Mertens
- Nation of shopkeepers Martin Keegan
- Nation of shopkeepers Huibai
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Brandon Van Every
- Nation of shopkeepers Jon A. Lambert
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Marian Griffith
- Nation of shopkeepers Jeff Kesselman
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Adam Wiggins
- Nation of shopkeepers Alex Oren
- Nation of shopkeepers Matt Chatterley
- Nation of shopkeepers Chris Gray