December 1997
- Vague: Containers Ling
- Forests, swamps, terrain & web ecology (long) Ling
- Forests, swamps, terrain & web ecology (long) coder@ibm.net
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries coder@ibm.net
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Adam Wiggins
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Brandon J. Rickman
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries coder@ibm.net
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Jon A. Lambert
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries coder@ibm.net
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries coder@ibm.net
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Chris Gray
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries coder@ibm.net
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Stephen Zepp
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries coder@ibm.net
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Chris Gray
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Vadim Tkachenko
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Matt Chatterley
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Vadim Tkachenko
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries coder@ibm.net
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Jon A. Lambert
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Marian Griffith
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries coder@ibm.net
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Stephen Zepp
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Marian Griffith
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries Matt Chatterley
- BUILDERS: Ferries coder@ibm.net
- BUILDERS: Ferries Sauron
- BUILDERS: Ferries s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- BUILDERS: Ferries coder@ibm.net
- BUILDERS: Ferries Marian Griffith
- BUILDERS: Ferries Mike Sellers
- BUILDERS: Ferries Adam Wiggins
- BUILDERS: Ferries Ling
- BUILDERS: Ferries Jon A. Lambert
- BUILDERS: Ferries Chris Gray
- BUILDERS: Ferries coder@ibm.net
- BUILDERS: Ferries Jon A. Lambert
- BUILDERS: Ferries Derrick Jones
- BUILDERS: Ferries Marian Griffith
- BUILDERS: Ferries s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- BUILDERS: Ferries Vadim Tkachenko
- BUILDERS: Ferries Marian Griffith
- Alignment Vadim Tkachenko
- Status visualization Was: UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: forests and such Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- OT: forests and such Chris Gray
- Seminal Designs, WAS: Alignment Koster, Raph
- META: FAQ and Thread Summaries (HTML) Ling
- OT: News from the front coder@ibm.net
- OT: News from the front Richard Woolcock
- OT: News from the front Matt Chatterley
- OT: News from the front Mike Sellers
- OT: News from the front Chris Gray
- OT: News from the front coder@ibm.net
- OT: News from the front Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: News from the front Marian Griffith
- OT: News from the front Sauron
- OT: News from the front Nathan Yospe
- OT: News from the front coder@ibm.net
- OT: News from the front Jon A. Lambert
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Alex Oren
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Mike Sellers
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Alex Oren
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Alex Oren
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Mike Sellers
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Alex Oren
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Stephen Zepp
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Mike Sellers
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Matt Chatterley
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Derrick Jones
- Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Mike Sellers
At 10:15 PM 12/12/97 PST8PDT, Derrick Jones wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Matt Chatterley wrote:
>> The other large problem is that many game administrators think having a
>> player-run council will be great, and wipe out problems. However, they
>> fail to define the duties of the council and expect it to enforce things
>> it cannot (for instance, things wizards normally use logs to enforce and
>> other OOC matters, when the council is an IC construct). Also, they
>> dislike surrendering power to the council in some cases, and instead begin
>> to 'direct' the council - basically turning it into a front for
>> themselves.
I agree, there has to be a clear division between OOC and IC matters;
players should only be able to administer IC-relevant ones, and then only
within parameters set by the actual admins. Having done that, the admins
*must not* try to direct the players' specific actions; remaining neutral
on IC matters is a must.
>Hrm...If you're expecting players to help admin the mud, why not simply
>promote a core group (those you feel can be trusted) to godhood (or
>whatever equivalent) so that they actually have the ability to do their
>job. Giving greater powers to fewer players lets you err on the side of
>caution a bit more in selecting them from your playerbase.
>Personally, I'd make my selection, log _everything_ that player does for a
>week or two (just to make sure), then invite the player to join the staff
>after the logs had been thorougly reviewed. Time consuming, but you'll
>get a lot better view of your potential staffers this way.
It depends on whether you're talking about a large player base or a small
one, and whether the project is commercial or not. I'm working on a large
commercial project that I hope will have a very large user base (I'll trade
you user population projections, Raph ;) ), so putting the onus of
administration on *any* small group of people is just asking for burnout
and trouble. What you suggest is sort of the typical old-style wiz/admin
method, but unfortunately it doesn't scale to large user bases, tends to
breed rampant favoritism, and turns the wiz-corps into one big gossip and
politics factory. Of course, there are ways to harness even that to make
good gameplay, I believe... :)
>I also plan on periodically allowing free-form elections for several
>governmental style positions. The first group will consist of one player
>from each class, will serve as player 'lobbyist' for that class, and
>probably be given builder powers and nifty little titles. Their main
>purpose it to promote their particular class: suggesting skills, arguing
>inequalities, designing a few quests.
I see this is system-level administration; to some degree you're ceding
your power to design those classes to a few players. I'm more interested
in IC, character-world relevant administration and governance. OOC and
actual design issues I think are better dealt with by a group of people who
do not primarily *play* the game.
>The balance of power on the mud wil
>rest largely on the personality of these people, as most changes will have
>to pass through the god-staff (those with full code access...limited to
>myself most likely), and those who argue their case the best and come up
>with the best ideas will get a bit of favortism from the gods(me).
This probably sounds off-topic, but in addition to my other heretical
ideas, I think as mud design matures we need to move away from viewing the
designers of the world as the 'gods' of the world. The current terminology
is cute and neat if you want to feed your ego (a valid and pervasive
motivation in mud-land), but it confuses the OOC and IC issues. There
should be, I think, a pantheon of gods, or a single God, or no God at all,
depending on how you want to structure the world -- and of course, the
admins/designers might embody themselves as one of the Gods from time to
time, but then they are interacting with the PCs *in character.* We won't
get very far in terms of promoting role playing or an immersive IC
experience if clearly OOC people keep popping in to mess around with the
world or its inhabitants.
There's another reason too: I've seen first-hand the ugly side of becoming
a minor celebrity like a mud-god, and I don't just mean a swelled head
(among other things, for every pleased and respectful fan there is a
groupie and a truly troubled individual you are forced to deal with). No
good comes of it. I think it is incumbent on mud-designers to get their
gratification out of designing a solidly entertaining world rather than
parading themselves around the world to the adulation of the crowd. I've
seen people lose their focus in their work, play to the crowd rather than
the design, engage in petty backbiting, begin to see the players/customers
as "the little people", and even be viciously slandered, all because of
their vaunted position as one of the "gods" of the world. This is
unhealthy in more ways than I can describe, including personally,
culturally, creatively, and even in strict business terms. So, my advice
is, put the gods *in* the world, and take your OOC-self out of it. You
and your mud will be happier.
Oops. Where _did_ this soapbox come from?
Mike Sellers mike@online-alchemy.com
Online Alchemy A division of The Big Network
Combining art & science to create new worlds. - Wild west (was Guilds & Politics) Stephen Zepp
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- Time travel and Logging Jon A. Lambert
- Time travel and Logging JC Lawrence
- Time travel and Logging Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Time travel and Logging Jon A. Lambert
- Time travel and Logging JC Lawrence
- Time travel and Logging Ling
- Time travel and Logging Koster, Raph
- Time travel and Logging Jon A. Lambert
- Time travel and Logging JC Lawrence
- Task Parsing (repost for format) Stephen Zepp
- AI Nodes (was: Attributions vs brainstorming ...) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- AI Nodes (was: Attributions vs brainstorming ...) Jon A. Lambert
- Commercial value of RP JC Lawrence
- Commercial value of RP Jon A. Lambert
- Commercial value of RP Travis Casey
- Commercial value of RP Brandon Cline
- Commercial value of RP Mike Sellers
- Commercial value of RP Travis Casey
- Commercial value of RP Travis Casey
- Commercial value of RP Koster, Raph
- Commercial value of RP Mike Sellers
- Commercial value of RP Miroslav Silovic
- Commercial value of RP Mike Sellers
- Commercial value of RP Jon A. Lambert
- Commercial value of RP Ling
- Commercial value of RP JC Lawrence
- Commercial value of RP Koster, Raph
- Commercial value of RP JC Lawrence
- Commercial value of RP Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Commercial value of RP Koster, Raph
- Commercial value of RP Vadim Tkachenko
- Commercial value of RP Chris Gray
- Commercial value of RP Koster, Raph
- Commercial value of RP JC Lawrence
- Commercial value of RP Mike Sellers
- Commercial value of RP Raph & Kristen Koster
- Commercial value of RP JC Lawrence
- Commercial value of RP Mike Sellers
- Commercial value of RP Miroslav Silovic
- Commercial value of RP Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Commercial value of RP The Eternal City
- Commercial value of RP Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Commercial value of RP The Eternal City
- Commercial value of RP JC Lawrence
- Commercial value of RP The Eternal City
- Commercial value of RP JC Lawrence
- Commercial value of RP Mike Sellers
- OT: Mud Settings Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Mud Settings Travis Casey
- FAQ: Personalities Ling
- FAQ: Personalities coder@ibm.net