September 2004
- Tuplespaces and MUDs J C Lawrence
- Tuplespaces and MUDs Matt Cruikshank
- Dragon Empires is cancelled dienw
- Dragon Empires is cancelled ceo
- Dragon Empires is cancelled Jim Purbrick
- Dragon Empires is cancelled OWEN, Matt, FM
- Dragon Empires is cancelled Alex Arnon
- Dragon Empires is cancelled Dana V. Baldwin
- Dragon Empires is cancelled Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) Michael Sellers
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) Lee Sheldon
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) Tamzen Cannoy
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) Damion Schubert
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) Lee Sheldon
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) zgj22@drexel.edu
- Dragon Empires is cancelled Jim Purbrick
- Tuplespaces and MUDs Alex Arnon
- Tuplespaces and MUDs Zach Collins (Siege)
- Tuplespaces and MUDs ceo
- Tuplespaces and MUDs Jim Purbrick
- Tuplespaces and MUDs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Out of Office AutoReply: Distributed State Systems John Borland
- "flat" power treadmill [was: Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd] HRose
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Mike Rozak
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Douglas Goodall
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? John MacQueen
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? HRose
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Damion Schubert
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Mike Rozak
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiong was:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) William Leader
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiong was:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) Alistair Milne
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiongwas:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) John Buehler
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiong was:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) Bruce Mitchener
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiong was:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) HRose
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiongwas:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) John Buehler
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Per Vognsen
- PHP Mud Jones, Channing
- PHP Mud Chris
- Anyone remember this thesis? Scott Jennings
- Anyone remember this thesis? Paul Schwanz
- SOC Roll play vs. Role play Matthew Rick
- SOC Roll play vs. Role play Zach Collins (Siege)
- SOC Roll play vs. Role play darksuit
- SOC Roll play vs. Role play richard@kavir.org
- SOC Roll play vs. Role play Christopher Allen
- Fwd: Distributed State Systems Alex Arnon
- Fwd: Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Decision making... J C Lawrence
- Decision making... Mike Rozak
- Decision making... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Decision making... Byron Ellacott
- Decision making... Rayzam
- Decision making... Matt Mihaly
- Decision making... Rayzam
- Decision making... Mike Rozak
- Decision making... Kalle
- Decision making... Jason Messer
- Decision making... Douglas Goodall
- Decision making... Mike Rozak
- Decision making... Byron Ellacott
- Decision making... Tess Lowe
- Decision making... ceo
- Decision making... Douglas Goodall
- Decision making... David Kennerly
- Separating newbies and oldbies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Separating newbies and oldbies HRose
- Separating newbies and oldbies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Adam Burr
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Middleditch
- Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Hartman
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... HRose
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Removing the almighty experience point... HRose
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Paul Schwanz
- Removing the almighty experience point... asteroid@rocketmail.com
- Removing the almighty experience point... Byron Ellacott
- Removing the almighty experience point... Kiztent Hatepriest
- Removing the almighty experience point... Johan
- Removing the almighty experience point... Kiztent Hatepriest
- Removing the almighty experience point... Amanda Walker
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ben Hawes
- Removing the almighty experience point... Johan
- Removing the almighty experience point... Johan
- Removing the almighty experience point... Amanda Walker
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Kelly
- Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
- Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
- Removing the almighty experience point... Johan
- Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- [SPAM] Removing the almighty experience point... Dana V. Baldwin
- [SPAM] Removing the almighty experience point... J C Lawrence
- [SPAM] Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- [SPAM] Removing the almighty experience point... Dana V. Baldwin
- Removing the almighty experience point... ceo
- Removing the almighty experience point... Dana V. Baldwin
- Removing the almighty experience point... ceo
- Removing the almighty experience point... Bloo
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Kelly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Kelly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Morgan Dodge
- Removing the almighty experience point... Douglas Goodall
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ben Hawes
- Removing the almighty experience point... neild-mud@misago.org
- Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
Matt Mihaly wrote:
> Bloo wrote:
>> That's one way to look at it. Another is that people will put up
>> with a lot to sort of 'play' something online that is escapist
>> with other people from the convenience of their homes. In that
>> way, the grind is something tolerated rather than desired.
>> And the lack of grind-free options that are entertaining is
>> another factor.
> This doesn't make sense. If the problem with grind-free options is
> that they're not entertaining, and if grinds aren't entertaining,
> then how are almost pure-grind games like Everquest entertaining
> to these masses of people who are playing it but apparently don't
> like grinds? If it's the other aspects of Everquest that these
> people are finding entertaining, what are they, and why can't they
> just find them elsewhere? There's precious little to EQ besides
> the grind, which should make it exceptionally easy to replace if
> it's the non-grind aspects of the game these players like.
> I maintain that current players, by and large, are at least
> somewhat entertained by the grind, and that slapping a new skin on
> the grind while polishing its mechanics is enough to get them
> excited (see CoH).
Some observations from reading this thread:
1) 'The level grind' has served designers well primarily because
the grind is a scalable activity- meaning that players can choose
when and where they fight in order to manage their own risk and
reward. This is incredibly valuable. Even in the much-lauded
missions system in City of Heroes, I constantly had missions that
were too hard, too far away, took too long, or required too many
other people. When that happened, I was happy to go beat down
muggers.
In this behemoth thread, I've read some who say that people want
challenge and others who say that people just want to click on the
button and get the reward. The truth of the matter is that what
players want from the grind varies from player to player. Even
more so, a single player can have different motivations from day
to day. Some days, you want to go in and slay the God of War with
a well organized team. Other days, you're exhausted, and you just
want to kill a few orcs before bed. Having the first activity is
great, but having the second activity is crucial if you want your
game to be the player's nightly login choice. Remember, your game
is like the corner bar where these people spend all of their time,
and it needs to accomodate people no matter what mood they came in
the door.
2) MMO players like a challenge, and they eat it all up, and they
are more than willing to fight bigger monsters and incur greater
risks. If they are with guildmates they know and trust, they'll
tackle bigger, better mobs with more inherent risk for more
implied reward. If they are with other people who they've never
adventured with before, they will steer those groups towards less
risky adventuring areas.
3) In the long run, players will _always_ find the most efficient
way to advance their character, and yes, they will spend a lot of
time there. One of the largest factors in this is the penalties
for death they risk. If the most efficient way to level a
character in your game is fighting low-risk mobiles with low
reward for the lack of risk, that suggests to me that your
experience curve isn't rewarding the best behavior.
4) 'The level grind', at the end of the day, is only as fun as the
gameplay that earns you the experience point. If your combat is
boring, then your level grind will feel like a level grind. This
isn't a problem with the experience point->level reward system,
but rather the combat system.
5) When people talk about 'risk' in these games, they often forget
how persistence changes the risk equation. For example, in Doom
3, you risk death, but you are one reload away from being right
back in the thick of things. In a massively multiplayer game,
there is no concept of a reload. As such, unlike a single player
game, a defeated MMO player will often have to (a) heal up (b)
reequip himself, (c) pay off some sort of experience loss or debt
and/or (d) traverse back to his comrades. This stands in stark
contrast to single player games, and is an important reason why
players who have the opportunity to pursue challenge instead
choose to scale down their own gameplay experience in order to get
reliable returns for low risk. Again, this is less a problem with
the experience point-> level reward system than with the defeat
scenarios of most MMOs.
6) One of the key reasons we as designers keep falling back into
'experience grind' systems is that it is so easy to create and
maintain interesting group dynamics. As interesting as crafting
is, and as social the buying and selling transaction has the
ability to be, playing a Master Armorsmith in Star Wars Galaxies
was a lot of solo gameplay spent in front of the forge. Compare
that to the standard daily experience in EverQuest: everyone's in
a group, teamwork is crucial, everyone contributes, and everyone
is rewarded. Most 'alternative gameplays' in MMOs I've witnessed
simply do not pass the Teamplay Test the way that combat does, and
they often feel forced or artificial and overly abstract. Given
that Other People is fundamentally our competitive edge over
single player gaming, this is a big deal.
7) Last but not least, the grind is cheap to make. An experience
levelling system is easy to code, easy to balance and easy to
debug. It's easy for us to make a near infinite-amount of content
for an Achiever. For an Explorer, for example, it's decidedly
harder: they can devour the content faster than you can craft it,
and to an explorer, new content only really counts as new content
if it varies from the old content somehow.
This is not to say that we should only do experience->levels - in
fact, I have several good ideas on how to shake up the equation in
my next go-around - but the experience point is an awfully maligned
design concept. Any alternative scheme really needs to take a look
at what the Experience Point does well.
--d
- Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... David Wright
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... David Wright
- Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
- Removing the almighty experience point... Tim Schubert
- Removing the almighty experience point... Devin Smoth
- Removing the almighty experience point... zgj22@drexel.edu
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Jason Messer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Hartman
- Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
- Removing the almighty experience point... Devin Smoth
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Devin Smoth
- Removing the almighty experience point... Otis Viles
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... neild-mud@misago.org
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Middleditch
- Removing the almighty experience point... neild-mud@misago.org
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Middleditch
- Removing the almighty experience point... richard@kavir.org
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Middleditch
- Removing the almighty experience point... Corey Cauble
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ben Hawes
- Removing the almighty experience point... Brian Hook
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ben Hawes
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Bloo
- Removing the almighty experience point... ceo
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Removing the almighty experience point... richard@kavir.org
- Removing the almighty experience point... Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Removing the almighty experience point... Corey Crawford
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Freeman, Jeff
- Removing the almighty experience point... HRose
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Mike Shaver
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Mike Rozak
- Removing the almighty experience point... Zach Collins (Siege)
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Mike Rozak
- Removing the almighty experience point... Will Jennings
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
- Removing the almighty experience point... P J
- [SPAM] Removing the almighty experience point... Dana V. Baldwin
- Removing the almighty experience point... P J
- Removing the almighty experience point... Will Jennings
- Removing the almighty experience point... Mike Rozak
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Amanda Walker
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Mike Rozak
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Mike Rozak
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Chek Yang FOO
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Corey Cauble
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Damion Schubert
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Mike Rozak
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Chek Yang FOO
- State of Play Conference Invitation Noveck, Beth
- BIZ: Breaking the VW marketing model Mike Rozak
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) Chris
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) Ren Reynolds
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) zgj22@drexel.edu
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) Chek Yang FOO
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) Paul Schwanz
- ClicheQuest J C Lawrence
- Putting the crawl to a halt David Johansson
- Putting the crawl to a halt Vincent Archer
- Shift in time Brian Lindahl
- Shift in time Peter A. Harkins
- Shift in time Mike Rozak
- Shift in time Michael Sellers
- Shift in time Arnau Rosselló Castelló
- Shift in time Robert Zubek
- Shift in time Thomas Clive Richards
- Shift in time Mike Rozak
- Shift in time Robert Zubek
- Shift in time Amanda Walker
- Shift in time Paolo Piselli
- Shift in time Damion Schubert
- Shift in time Paolo Piselli
- Shift in time Michael Sellers
- Shift in time Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Shift in time Sunny Gulati
- Shift in time Brian Lindahl
- Shift in time Matt Mihaly
- Shift in time Brian Lindahl
- Shift in time Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Harlan Beverly
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Ben Greear
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Jay Moran
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Harlan Beverly
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Ben Greear
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Harlan Beverly
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Jay Moran
- OpenTNL and DirectPlay (hardware acceleration) Harlan Beverly
- OpenTNL and DirectPlay (hardware acceleration) Brian Hook
- OpenTNL and DirectPlay (hardware acceleration) Jeremy Noetzelman
- OpenTNL and DirectPlay (hardware acceleration) Harlan Beverly
- OpenTNL and DirectPlay (hardware acceleration) Brett Bibby
- BIZ: Gaming Hardware Startup, looking for good Gaming Business Development Person Harlan Beverly
- BIZ: Gaming Hardware Startup, looking for good Gaming Business Development Person
- BIZ: Gaming Hardware Startup, looking for good Gaming Business Development Person Amanda Walker
- The Lag monster... Harlan Beverly
- The Lag monster... Matthew D. Fuller
- The Lag monster... Kiztent Hatepriest
- The Lag monster... Kiztent Hatepriest
- The Lag monster... Sean Kelly
- The Lag monster... Justin Randall
- The Lag monster... Sean Kelly
- The Lag monster... Harlan Beverly
- The Lag monster... Amanda Walker
- The Lag monster... lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- The Lag monster... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Byron Ellacott
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitioning William Leader
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitioning Damion Schubert