September 2004
- Tuplespaces and MUDs J C Lawrence
- Tuplespaces and MUDs Matt Cruikshank
- Dragon Empires is cancelled dienw
- Dragon Empires is cancelled ceo
- Dragon Empires is cancelled Jim Purbrick
- Dragon Empires is cancelled OWEN, Matt, FM
- Dragon Empires is cancelled Alex Arnon
- Dragon Empires is cancelled Dana V. Baldwin
- Dragon Empires is cancelled Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) Michael Sellers
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) Lee Sheldon
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) Tamzen Cannoy
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) Damion Schubert
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) Lee Sheldon
- Room for more? (was Dragon Empires is cancelled) zgj22@drexel.edu
- Dragon Empires is cancelled Jim Purbrick
- Tuplespaces and MUDs Alex Arnon
- Tuplespaces and MUDs Zach Collins (Siege)
- Tuplespaces and MUDs ceo
- Tuplespaces and MUDs Jim Purbrick
- Tuplespaces and MUDs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Out of Office AutoReply: Distributed State Systems John Borland
- "flat" power treadmill [was: Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd] HRose
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Mike Rozak
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Douglas Goodall
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? John MacQueen
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? HRose
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Damion Schubert
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Mike Rozak
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiong was:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) William Leader
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiong was:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) Alistair Milne
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiongwas:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) John Buehler
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiong was:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) Bruce Mitchener
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiong was:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) HRose
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitiongwas:(exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info?) John Buehler
- DGN/TECH: exploiting/hacking in MMOGs - sources of info? Per Vognsen
- PHP Mud Jones, Channing
- PHP Mud Chris
- Anyone remember this thesis? Scott Jennings
- Anyone remember this thesis? Paul Schwanz
- SOC Roll play vs. Role play Matthew Rick
- SOC Roll play vs. Role play Zach Collins (Siege)
- SOC Roll play vs. Role play darksuit
- SOC Roll play vs. Role play richard@kavir.org
- SOC Roll play vs. Role play Christopher Allen
- Fwd: Distributed State Systems Alex Arnon
- Fwd: Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Decision making... J C Lawrence
- Decision making... Mike Rozak
- Decision making... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Decision making... Byron Ellacott
- Decision making... Rayzam
- Decision making... Matt Mihaly
- Decision making... Rayzam
- Decision making... Mike Rozak
- Decision making... Kalle
- Decision making... Jason Messer
- Decision making... Douglas Goodall
- Decision making... Mike Rozak
- Decision making... Byron Ellacott
- Decision making... Tess Lowe
- Decision making... ceo
- Decision making... Douglas Goodall
- Decision making... David Kennerly
- Separating newbies and oldbies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Separating newbies and oldbies HRose
- Separating newbies and oldbies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Adam Burr
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Middleditch
- Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Hartman
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... HRose
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Removing the almighty experience point... HRose
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Paul Schwanz
- Removing the almighty experience point... asteroid@rocketmail.com
- Removing the almighty experience point... Byron Ellacott
- Removing the almighty experience point... Kiztent Hatepriest
- Removing the almighty experience point... Johan
- Removing the almighty experience point... Kiztent Hatepriest
- Removing the almighty experience point... Amanda Walker
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ben Hawes
- Removing the almighty experience point... Johan
- Removing the almighty experience point... Johan
- Removing the almighty experience point... Amanda Walker
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Kelly
- Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
- Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
- Removing the almighty experience point... Johan
- Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- [SPAM] Removing the almighty experience point... Dana V. Baldwin
- [SPAM] Removing the almighty experience point... J C Lawrence
- [SPAM] Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- [SPAM] Removing the almighty experience point... Dana V. Baldwin
- Removing the almighty experience point... ceo
- Removing the almighty experience point... Dana V. Baldwin
- Removing the almighty experience point... ceo
- Removing the almighty experience point... Bloo
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Kelly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Kelly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Morgan Dodge
- Removing the almighty experience point... Douglas Goodall
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ben Hawes
- Removing the almighty experience point... neild-mud@misago.org
- Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
- Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... David Wright
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... David Wright
- Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
- Removing the almighty experience point... Tim Schubert
- Removing the almighty experience point... Devin Smoth
- Removing the almighty experience point... zgj22@drexel.edu
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Jason Messer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Hartman
- Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
- Removing the almighty experience point... Devin Smoth
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Devin Smoth
- Removing the almighty experience point... Otis Viles
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... neild-mud@misago.org
--<cut>--
Note: This message was written via the list web archives. There is
no guarantee that the claimed author is actually the author.
--<cut>--
Original message: http://www.kanga.nu/archives/MUD-Dev-L/2004Q3/msg00823.php
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:03:41 -0700
brian@thyer.net wrote:
> How is this really different than an experience system? You go
> out, you kill a bunch of things, you accomplish something (becasue
> killing 150,000 goblins for your next level *is* an
> accomplishment) and you get your level.
If you look at it that way, there is no difference. "Achieve ten
tasks to reach level 10" is the same as "each task gives 1
experience point, get ten experience points to advance".
Experience points, however, are almost always directly tied to
killing monsters: Kill an orc, get 5 points. Different games have
tweaked the formula, but I can't think of any major ones that have
abandoned it entirely. (DAoC has it's "camp bonus" to discourage
sitting in one spot; WoW offers very large quest xp rewards to make
questing a viable alternative to grinding; pretty much everyone
stops awarding experience for killing low-level mobs.)
The problem with this, as Vincent said, is that experience points
are fungible. There's no difference between xp earned for whacking
rats, saving the princess, or killing the troll king--it all goes in
the same pot. It's this form of fungible achievement that is the
problem.
The result is inevitable: Players will find the single most
efficient means of generating xp per hour, and grind on it. They
will make tourist excursions to look at other content, but return to
the efficient grind when they want to progress.
This is hell on game balance.
A bug which makes one monster species trivial to kill rapidly can
throw off the balance of the entire game, as players level up far
faster than intended. In a system where methods of advancement are
not fungible, this would unbalance only the parts of the game which
apply to that species.
Experience point systems are fragile.
> So is it grinding? Certainly, but it's *mission* grinding. Which
> I think is what you're describing as well. The focus goes to the
> missions on your plate and you become more interested in working
> your way through them than you do working through the level you're
> in.
Grinding isn't the key problem of experience points, though.
Fragility is. To use your example of City of Heroes: Players have
discovered that a character with good defenses and area-of-effect
attacks can run around a zone, provoke vast numbers of mobs to
attack them at once, and then kill them all simultaneously. People
who do this have a ridiculously fast rate of advancement, of course.
In a system which didn't hand out xp for every monster killed, an
issue like this would still be a balance flaw--but it wouldn't be
one that utterly destroys the balance between different archetypes.
The exact same thing goes for the game economy, substituting
gold/credits/etc. for experience points. Since gold is infinitely
fungible, a single means of making gold rapidly can destroy the
entire economy.
A Tale in the Desert has an interesting solution to this: There is
no game currency. If someone finds a more efficient way of
producing a resource such as iron, the price of iron drops--but the
economy as a whole remains stable, since there is no means to
directly convert iron into any other resource.
- Damien - Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Middleditch
- Removing the almighty experience point... neild-mud@misago.org
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Middleditch
- Removing the almighty experience point... richard@kavir.org
- Removing the almighty experience point... Sean Middleditch
- Removing the almighty experience point... Corey Cauble
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ben Hawes
- Removing the almighty experience point... Brian Hook
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ben Hawes
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... brian@thyer.net
- Removing the almighty experience point... Bloo
- Removing the almighty experience point... ceo
- Removing the almighty experience point... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Removing the almighty experience point... neild-mud@misago.org
- Removing the almighty experience point... richard@kavir.org
- Removing the almighty experience point... Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Removing the almighty experience point... Corey Crawford
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Freeman, Jeff
- Removing the almighty experience point... HRose
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Mike Shaver
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Mike Rozak
- Removing the almighty experience point... Zach Collins (Siege)
- Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
- Removing the almighty experience point... Mike Rozak
- Removing the almighty experience point... Will Jennings
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
- Removing the almighty experience point... P J
- [SPAM] Removing the almighty experience point... Dana V. Baldwin
- Removing the almighty experience point... P J
- Removing the almighty experience point... Will Jennings
- Removing the almighty experience point... Mike Rozak
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Amanda Walker
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Mike Rozak
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Removing the almighty experience point... Miroslav Silovic
- Removing the almighty experience point... Matt Mihaly
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Mike Rozak
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Chek Yang FOO
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Corey Cauble
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Damion Schubert
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Mike Rozak
- Griefer repellant (Was Decision making...) Chek Yang FOO
- State of Play Conference Invitation Noveck, Beth
- BIZ: Breaking the VW marketing model Mike Rozak
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) Chris
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) Ren Reynolds
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) zgj22@drexel.edu
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) Chek Yang FOO
- Has the circle gone rusty? (fwd) Paul Schwanz
- ClicheQuest J C Lawrence
- Putting the crawl to a halt David Johansson
- Putting the crawl to a halt Vincent Archer
- Shift in time Brian Lindahl
- Shift in time Peter A. Harkins
- Shift in time Mike Rozak
- Shift in time Michael Sellers
- Shift in time Arnau Rosselló Castelló
- Shift in time Robert Zubek
- Shift in time Thomas Clive Richards
- Shift in time Mike Rozak
- Shift in time Robert Zubek
- Shift in time Amanda Walker
- Shift in time Paolo Piselli
- Shift in time Damion Schubert
- Shift in time Paolo Piselli
- Shift in time Michael Sellers
- Shift in time Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Shift in time Sunny Gulati
- Shift in time Brian Lindahl
- Shift in time Matt Mihaly
- Shift in time Brian Lindahl
- Shift in time Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Harlan Beverly
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Ben Greear
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Jay Moran
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Harlan Beverly
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Ben Greear
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Harlan Beverly
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Jay Moran
- OpenTNL and DirectPlay (hardware acceleration) Harlan Beverly
- OpenTNL and DirectPlay (hardware acceleration) Brian Hook
- OpenTNL and DirectPlay (hardware acceleration) Jeremy Noetzelman
- OpenTNL and DirectPlay (hardware acceleration) Harlan Beverly
- OpenTNL and DirectPlay (hardware acceleration) Brett Bibby
- BIZ: Gaming Hardware Startup, looking for good Gaming Business Development Person Harlan Beverly
- BIZ: Gaming Hardware Startup, looking for good Gaming Business Development Person
- BIZ: Gaming Hardware Startup, looking for good Gaming Business Development Person Amanda Walker
- The Lag monster... Harlan Beverly
- The Lag monster... Matthew D. Fuller
- The Lag monster... Kiztent Hatepriest
- The Lag monster... Kiztent Hatepriest
- The Lag monster... Sean Kelly
- The Lag monster... Justin Randall
- The Lag monster... Sean Kelly
- The Lag monster... Harlan Beverly
- The Lag monster... Amanda Walker
- The Lag monster... lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- The Lag monster... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TCP/UDP/IP Offload NIC for gamers? Byron Ellacott
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitioning William Leader
- DGN/TECH: Implementing server side spatial partitioning Damion Schubert